Servant Battles...... OF EPICNESS!!! (round 2)

by **The Lord Kelvin** 2010-11-02, 11:26

ARCHER VS CASTER!!!

Archer

Spoiler:

Caster

Spoiler:

Ground: Firm
Obstacles: None
Space: Medium (Emiya House and its Environment)
Mana Resources: Good
Temperature: Freezing
Lighting: Murky

by **Xenoe** 2010-11-02, 11:28

Oh NOEZ ARCHER CAN'T SEE, HOW HE GONNA AIM????!!!???

by **The Lord Kelvin** 2010-11-02, 11:31

btw, from now on i'll b adding in temp and light attributes to the stage due to a request.... also round 1 will we redone with new terrain details

by **Xenoe** 2010-11-02, 11:41

Archer can rape with B rank skill, and thus he sexually molests the little kid that is Accelerator... LAWL!

by **kaede** 2010-11-02, 11:45

I give this to caster. Any arrows archer shoots at him he can just redirect back at him and he can manipulate the memmories of the followers to be on his side and attack archer.

by **dinasemrys** 2010-11-02, 11:51

ok, caster has prana furnaces that basically make redirection free. Caster can redirect any noble phantasm. That includes the implosion part of the arrow. I dont care how fast the arrow is, Accelerator constantly reflects all UV radiation (which is AT the SPEED of light).
In addition, due to prana furnaces, Caster can take control of the planet's rotational vectors and tranfer the enormous amount of that energy into one attack constantly for free.
And if caster even touches archer, he can rewire his brain and turn him into a slave...

by **kaede** 2010-11-02, 11:55

I think there should have been a limit put on parts of that NP (mainly the memmory changer and the re director) but to late now vote still stands at caster.

by **Zhu Yang** 2010-11-02, 12:19

Actually Caster has to pay 3/4 the mana that the attack requires for redirection.

Redirection costs 3/4 the amount of prana/mana that was required for the opponent to use the attack.

Also, the planet rotational vectors will cost a lot of mana, even under good mana conditions.

It can also be used to take control of the planet's rotational vectors and tranfer the enormous amount of that energy into one attack. However, using this ability requires 1/2 of Accelerator’s total mana at no mana.

Are you saying that Prana Cores provide infinite mana? It seems like they would make vector calculations less mentally taxing, and provide a set amount of extra mana, but I don't see anything about infinite mana?

In addition, Archer's Divinity should lower Caster's special defense (vector redirection)?

It also has an effect which reduces special defensive values called "purge defense" by an amount equivalent to the rank of Divinity. It can break down Skills such as Protection of the Faith.

For the Village People, they all have tactics, espionage, and assassination, all at B so they wouldn't be sitting ducks for Caster to rewire. Archer has Charisma as well, so a mere change in emotion or memory wouldn't stop him from Commanding his troops. Caster would have to rewrite an entire lifetime of memories for each villager.

I think this would turn into a waiting game...because anything Caster can vector, Archer can just shoot arrow through with his A strength without fear of automatic redirection, because he's not shooting directly at Caster. For example, he could just shoot through any hurricanes or rocks that Caster shoots at him. Caster has E strength, so I don't really see how he could harm Archer. If Archer has his villagers (all with A mana) they could act as his own 'prana cores', supplying him with mana.

by **Xenoe** 2010-11-02, 12:25

Your right vroop, and with A rank mana for each villager, archer has effectively 51xA amount of mana, enough to at least considerably drain caster, and then he can rain arrows on caster with all his troops and himself that costs stamina and strength, but requiring caster to use prana to redirect. And all the villagers are A rank agility so they are as fast as caster and it is difficult to rewrite them.

by **nullset12** 2010-11-02, 12:30

Caster can redirect all the arrows ....

And since archer has less mana, he will run out first. Caster can then use tornadoes and crap

by **Xenoe** 2010-11-02, 12:32

The point is... no he doesn't they have a bout equal, and archer has physical attacks.

by **nullset12** 2010-11-02, 12:34

Caster has much higher battle endurance. Accelerator can probably survive more than one hit while he prepares a tornado thing

by **Xenoe** 2010-11-02, 12:40

Hmm yeah I guess, it all depends on who runs out first of mana basically..

by **Corenat Rovarnus** 2010-11-02, 12:48

wow, I really thought most servants would have no chance against accelerator besides our own, this seems to be pretty evenly matched I never thought divinity would actually be of use in this game. voting for caster for now because it'd be interesting to see how others deal with it, especially berserker.

by ZedSlayer 2010-11-02, 13:01

voting for caster because I want to laugh at Sandow tomorrow morning, never forget real life entertainment value

by **Zhu Yang** 2010-11-02, 13:14

nullset12 wrote:Caster has much higher battle endurance. Accelerator can probably survive more than one hit while he prepares a tornado thing

No, the thing is Archer just has to shoot through the tornadoes. Tornadoes aren't really all that strong compared to Archer's arrows. Also, can anyone say meat shields? Archer has villagers that can jump out of no where to protect him (they all have A agility as well).

The point is, Archer doesn't have any attacks to endure. Caster has E strength, and therefore direct attacks do nothing. All Archer has to do is shoot down anything Caster vectors, which is completely safe for him since he isn't attacking Caster directly.

:dualax:

by **nullset12** 2010-11-02, 13:20

@vroop

as a caster i'm assuming he/she can casts spells normally. He still has to avoid those

by **Zhu Yang** 2010-11-02, 13:31

Which would be negligible since Caster doesn't have High Speed Divine Words. He'll have to chant for a considerable time before he can produce A level magic, and even then it will be shot down.

Since all that was specified was vector magic, Caster would just be a normal magus.

by **nullset12** 2010-11-02, 13:37

He does not have to use A Rank magic.

Gandr is not an A rank spell and it can kill humans without magic resistance rather easily.

by **Zhu Yang** 2010-11-02, 13:41

Yes, but Houyi is not a human and does have A mana, which would allow him to reject Gandr. Also, don't forget he has villagers (whom, although human, possess A mana as well). He doesn't have to block every single blow, he has villagers to do that for him.

EDIT: Let's not forget, Houyi isn't fully on the defensive. He has A Divinity which would reduce Caster's special vector defense significantly, so Houyi's arrows should be able to damage Caster.

by **dinasemrys** 2010-11-02, 13:44

vector magic allows creation of high velocity winds and plasma. Plasma melt the enemies.
In addition, Caster can redirect the arrows AT ARCHER. Its not like the redirection just redirects it to a random location. Caster can redirect in any direction.
Caster can also redirect things as projectiles. So when Archer can only make weak arrows, they will just be blocked with projectiles.
btw, how can arrows shoot down magic? You do realize redirecting all of the Earth's vectors into one attack is like a pure force attack, not like a physical attack right? So in that case, wat can an arrow do against pure force? The force would plow through the arrows and all villagers in the way.
In addition, after 15 arrows, Archer can only shoot normal arrows.
A Mana does not say anything about magic resistance.

by **Corenat Rovarnus** 2010-11-02, 13:44

nullset12 wrote:He does not have to use A Rank magic.

Gandr is not an A rank spell and it can kill humans without magic resistance rather easily.

No, that is Rin's angst-supercharged fag Gandr shot that can blow up cars in the manga, Gandr shot is the equivalent of running the course of catching a cold and all of its effects concentrated in a few hours

noice new avatar thar peinan

by **Xenoe** 2010-11-02, 13:49

Thats called a Fin shot, and it requires hefty ammounts of mana

by **dinasemrys** 2010-11-02, 13:51

btw, its not a defense, its redirection. Purge defense is useless. Defense is blocking, redirecting is just redirecting.
For prana cores, remember zero caster. If an A+ rank prana core provides enough mana to basically summon an infinite army of monsters, EX rank prana cores provide tons and tons of mana.

by **Corenat Rovarnus** 2010-11-02, 13:55

wait, what is called a fin shot? I remember in the manga rin explicitly said she was using a Gandr shot, and it blew up a car. it's supposed to be only a minor curse, right? the manga got things wrong?

by **Xenoe** 2010-11-02, 13:57

no fin is advanced gander shoot
its still a gandr shot, but the concentration of mana is so heavy it has physical effects on the world

by **Zhu Yang** 2010-11-02, 14:04

Wind is the flow of gases due to differences in pressure. An arrow traveling at half the speed of light can definitely change those pressures, and break a wind system apart. Same thing applies for plasma.

Think of Houyi's arrows as Archer's arrows on steroids, they can still affect magic, whether it be barriers or projectiles.

Once again, A Divinity reduces the effectiveness of your redirection significantly. Caster should not be able to reflect arrows back at Archer if his vectors are reduced to that degree.

Even Archer's normal arrows are .5 the speed of light. His activation just makes them impode stuff on contact.

And how is this force applied? If you just say that it takes the rotational vectors of the earth, I'm going to assume that Caster is spinning Archer around a bazillion times.

http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Magecraft
Under resistance.

A power inherent of anyone with Magic Circuits, the capacity to resist spells which aim to control the target by the spiritual medium (those among the lines of sleep, paralysis and coercion).

(Oh btw, Archer's villagers all have A mana, so trying to rewrite them using a vector spell wouldn't work.)

If it is argued that Gandr is a physical spell and then resistance doesn't apply, then Archer can just as well knock them away with his bow due to his A strength.

If it is an automatic redirection that protects the possessor without need for him to activate him, then seems like it would count as special defense.

Also, Caster's prana cores are of an "Angelic nature"

The Angelic nature of this ability is described as "He who wields a piece of power that equates to God."

. If he's drawing on mana from them to use his vectors then I'm considering that a form of Purge Defense.

by **Corenat Rovarnus** 2010-11-02, 14:13

ZedSlayer wrote:voting for caster because I want to laugh at Sandow tomorrow morning, never forget real life entertainment value

sandy was hoping for our DKO so he wouldn't have to face one of us next round. Looks like he's gonna get what he wanted, without the impossible dko, lol.

@vroop the rotational vectors of earth, the earth's rotation itself, the Coriolis effect, is what causes hurricanes to form and mile high sandstorms on Arrakis. Drawing mana is not a defense by itself, so purge defense doesn't apply there, the spell or NP that is used to defend must be of a divine nature for purge defense to work. lol, gandr is not a physical spell

by **dinasemrys** 2010-11-02, 14:20

If it is unactivated and traveling at speed of light, it takes no mana to redirect it cuz Archer used no mana to send it.
The force is applied like a asagami fujino's (KnK) mystic eyes. It twists everything in the way apart (ripped in half).
A rank ability is useless against EX rank noble phantasm. An A rank ability is equivalent to about a C rank noble phantasm. In addition, just because hes using mana from wings does not mean the properties of the wing confer onto his redirection.
No one said anything about protect, it just redirects.
In addition, the ability is psychic not relating to god at all. In To Aru, magic is from god and psychic is scientific and was made to oppose magic. Therefore divinity would do nothing.
Caster can change vectors. Vectors deal with speed. As a result, he can use projectiles at .5 the speed of light too (and higher). If Caster stamps on the ground, he can break it into little rocks that he can fire at more than 0.5 the speed of light.
You cannot resist scientific abilities using magic resistance. As a result, rewiring works fine. As a level 5 esper (highest level), his ability is a psychic ability. Psychic abilities are scientific in nature (not magical) in To Aru. It only costs mana because I am converting willpower into mana for this game (and it would be too OP without mana cost).

by **Zhu Yang** 2010-11-02, 14:46

Corenat Rovarnus wrote:@vroop the rotational vectors of earth, the earth's rotation itself, the Coriolis effect, is what causes hurricanes to form and mile high sandstorms on Arrakis. Drawing mana is not a defense by itself, so purge defense doesn't apply there, the spell or NP that is used to defend must be of a divine nature for purge defense to work. lol, gandr is not a physical spell

Yes, so how would he use the earth's rotation? In what way would it affect Archer and how?

The defense that Caster uses drawing on his own mana might not be the special defense Purge Defense, but when he starts drawing on the Noble Phantasm Awakening it would the the same as such. It's like a deity giving a boost to someone's steel skin attribute. He wouldn't be applying what he was given until the arrow strikes him.

Once again, if it's purpose is to protect the owner, then it is protection. You have the redirection field set up so it automatically redirects attacks away without Caster having to think about, with the purpose of protecting him. It's like saying that chain-mail isn't protection because it's just a clump of iron that looks pretty.

If gandr is not a physical spell then it can be resisted by A mana, right?

dinasemrys wrote:Psychic abilities are scientific in nature (not magical) in To Aru. It only costs mana because I am converting willpower into mana for this game (and it would be too OP without mana cost).

That's the same thing as giving your character an ability that is implemented a certain way that can't be defended against by anyone because it's too unique. The whole point of making abilities cost mana is so we can linearize them to be compared. Servant battles is taking your character and fitting him to the Nasuverse mold.
If there are the words "Angelic" and "God" in the Noble Phantasm, then it is divine.

Accelerating to 0.5 light speed would take proportionally more mana since it was not paid for. Since it wasn't specified we're assuming it scales proportionally with what can be scientifically produced. By the way, accelerating normal objects to 0.5 light speed wouldn't work, they'd just burn up from friction before they hit Archer.

dinasemrys wrote:It twists everything in the way apart (ripped in half).

Then it's simple to avoid since it's physical.

dinasemrys wrote:A rank ability is useless against EX rank noble phantasm. An A rank ability is equivalent to about a C rank noble phantasm.

Don't understand what you mean here.

OK, I'm going to have to leave Sandow to continue defending himself so I can do hw, but from what I see Archer clinches.
-Divinity cancels out Caster's auto-redirect when he starts to draw mana from Divine NP
-0.5 light speed arrows bust powerofpoo up
-Villagers can be meatshields and have various other uses (including assassinating Caster when he is distracted, and boosting Archer's mana supply)
-Caster can't attack without using up a crap load of mana, and those attacks are avoidable as well
-etc.

by **InteroVegas** 2010-11-02, 14:49

yeah I vote archer, just arguing spam without taking into a count a non infinite mana supply, not convincing. also if this powerofpoo explodes the moment it touches him, then accelerator loses. wonderful, the arrow that is no longer there has a different vector, and what implodes is not the arrow, but accelerator himself. So basically, arrow touches accelerator, he implodes, even if the arrow does change direction, accelerator has imploded.

by **Corenat Rovarnus** 2010-11-02, 14:55

wait, so how is caster winning if you both voted archer just now?

by **dinasemrys** 2010-11-02, 14:57

its not physical, its simply a force that once contacts the other servant, causes it to twist apart. Read KnK

Its purpose is not to protect the owner. Accelerator just likes to ignore everyone else. He sometimes uses it to redirect all sounds so he can sleep better. He does not want to protect himself, he just wants to hurt other people. Pointing a nuclear weapon to a different direction is not the same as protecting against it.

The mana produced is "Dark Matter" mana. It is described as Angelic because it cannot be understood by human means. Not because it is divine. "He who wields a piece of power that equates to God" only means the power is comparable to the power of God not that it is divine.

In addition, since Defense Purge from divinity would be considered a magical ability, AIM field would negate it. AIM nullifies all magical Abilities that target the user. By "Similar to that of Magic Resistance except that it does not apply to spells. Instead, it applies to any mental attacks" it only refers to one type of ability that it nullifies.

At Amos, it says "has enough mass to implode". That implies that the arrow does not just disappear. It would need to stay with the target to implode. As a result, redirection avoids the implosion

by **InteroVegas** 2010-11-02, 15:05

oh hey, the arrow, albeit magical, can just target his clothes, not him, so its not targeting the user, so AIM don't work on the arrow no more. Just wanted to put that out there before it gets questioned.

by **dinasemrys** 2010-11-02, 15:06

if the arrow targets the clothes, as soon as it gets past the clothes, AIM works again. And if it causes the clothes to explode, the explosion is redirected.

by **nullset12** 2010-11-02, 15:39

QED checkmark

Don't argue with the genius

by **InteroVegas** 2010-11-02, 15:44

that explosion isn't targeting the user now is it, its objectively exploding, and the arrow would continue its merry way through the chest of his clothing, and then as collateral damage kill him. But that arrow never targeted him, and he can't redirect it if it touches his clothing, only when it touches him. He loses. Arguing based on the descriptions here pretty much, he can only redirect it after the arrow has touched him, but the same moment the arrow touches him he implodes, and if he redirects the implosion, it explodes, so have fun with that. People need to read, just because the words redirect and negate are in that guys sheet doesn't make him invincible.

by **kaede** 2010-11-02, 15:47

Basically your saying as soon as the arrow hits the clothing it will implode an as a result damage caster correct.

by **dinasemrys** 2010-11-02, 15:51

force has vectors too. The only thing that would contact Caster would be the force of the implosion of the clothing. However, the force is redirected because it has a vector. Therefore, imploding clothing does nothing.

Redirecting the implosion causes an explosion u say? does the explosion create force? yes, as a result, force from explosion is redirected too.

by **InteroVegas** 2010-11-02, 16:11

the arrow goes through his clothing and hits him as collateral. But it never targeted him, and the moment it touches him he implodes.

by **dinasemrys** 2010-11-02, 16:12

it doesnt need to target him for the vector to be redirected. The force of the implosion is redirected as well, so he doesnt implode.
besides, if it touched the clothing first, wouldnt the clothing implode instead?
the force from that implosion would also be redirected if that was the case

by **nullset12** 2010-11-02, 16:21

Gives the ability to control vectors. Can change the vector values of any noble phantasm or spell by touch. Furthermore, this ability is automatic and constantly active, so surprise attacks have no effect, as they will be redirected. Redirection costs 3/4 the amount of prana/mana that was required for the opponent to use the attack.

He can redirect ANY vector. It does not have to be targetting him in anyway. And he is free to direct the vector in any way he wants to. an imploding arrow can be redirected multiple times can it not?

by **InteroVegas** 2010-11-02, 16:39

dinasemrys wrote:it doesnt need to target him for the vector to be redirected. The force of the implosion is redirected as well, so he doesnt implode.
besides, if it touched the clothing first, wouldnt the clothing implode instead?
the force from that implosion would also be redirected if that was the case

It has to not target him so the AIM field doesn't cancel it, and again REDIRECTING IT DOESN'T MATTER, he can't redirect it until it touches him, and by that point in time, he implodes. And the arrow never goes poof, it is not stated as such, its whatever the arrow touches that goes poof. And with that much speed and force, its probably not going to stop because of clothing, just a hunch.

by **dinasemrys** 2010-11-02, 16:45

Can change the vector values of any noble phantasm includes the abilities of it. Technically, giant laser beam from excalibur is not the noble phantasm itself, but an part of it. However, I made it so that it can redirect the giant laser beam.

Since the implosion is a part of the noble phantasm (property counts as a part), it is redirected as well.

in addition, implosion implies that there must be a force to compress something (ex: gravity causes stars to implode). force has vectors

by **nullset12** 2010-11-02, 16:49

Gives the ability to control vectors. Can change the vector values of any noble phantasm or spell by touch.

He can control all vectors. The second part just denotes that he can redirect noble phantasms also

by **InteroVegas** 2010-11-02, 16:49

again, it doesn't matter, the moment it touches him, he implodes.

Lets go through this - if you are imploding, you can't do stuff, again, if you are imploding YOU can't do stuff.

And he can only redirect what touches him, but that means it must touch him before he can redirect it, and once it the arrow has touched him, HE implodes.

by **nullset12** 2010-11-02, 16:56

Furthermore, this ability is automatic and constantly active, so surprise attacks have no effect, as they will be redirected. Redirection costs 3/4 the amount of prana/mana that was required for the opponent to use the attack.

It is a passive ability. HE doesn't need to do anything. I'm interpreting it as he can just choose where if he wants to

by **InteroVegas** 2010-11-02, 17:04

correct, BUT THE MOMENT THE ARROW TOUCHES HIM, HE IMPLODES. AND IT MUST TOUCH HIM BEFORE HE CAN REDIRECT IT. so far none of you have given a point that affects my argument, nor is relative to it.

Yes, he can redirect attacks once he has touched them.

by **nullset12** 2010-11-02, 17:08

Are you assuming that the implosion is instantaneous?

In the end it all comes down to which abilty is faster. The Implosion of the arrow or casters reflecting ability

by **InteroVegas** 2010-11-02, 17:09

it states that whatever it touches implodes, and that statement was utterly flawed, the arrow DOES NOT IMPLODE, the thing it touches implodes. that thing being him.

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