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Log in~~GENERATION SIX, TIER TWO, ROUND ONE~~
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kaede
ZedSlayer
Xenoe
7 posters
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trolollolo make ur choice gaiz
~~GENERATION SIX, TIER TWO, ROUND ONE~~
by Xenoe 2010-12-15, 16:14
Alright, since its the second level of this tourney, I feel that I should just do extended voting time for all battles. However, I am also extending the discussion time to 18 hours.
Let it begin!
Ground: Slippery
Obstacles: None
Space: Medium
Mana Resources: Sufficient
Temperature: AMOS freezing
Lighting: Murky
Its an ice skating rink guys! Winter wonderland
. Except servants don't have skates and slip all over the place. Too bad.
Let it begin!
- Spoiler:
- True Identity: Long Mu - Dragon Mother (龙母)
Class: Rider
Alignment: Neutral Good
Backstory:
Long Mu, at that time Wen Shi 溫氏, was born in 290 BCE in the Guandong province on the edge of the Xi River. One day while she was fishing and washing clothes along the Xi River, she discovered a beautifully polished white stone. She took the beautiful stone home, but later discovered that the stone was actually an egg, from which hatched five baby snakes.
Although her family was very poor and she did not have much food for herself, Wen Shi saved the best scraps for her snakes, whom eventually grew very large and became strong enough to help her catch fish. The snakes grew larger with each passing day, and matured into 5 powerful dragons.
When a drought hit Wen Shi's village, she asked her dragon children to summon rain and help end the drought. When the rain came and quenched the dry land's thirst, the grateful villagers gave Wen Shi the name of Dragon Mother, and Divine Human, and deified her.
Qin Shihuang, the Emperor of the Qin Dynasty, received word of Wen Shi and her dragons. The Emperor sent her gifts of gold and jade and requested her presence at Xianyang, the imperial capital city near the Yellow River, far to the north. By this time, Wen Shi was an elderly women in frail health. Her adult dragons feared for her safety and did not want her to travel so far from her village. Wen Shi boarded a boat to comply with the Emperor's commandment, but her dragons hid under the boat and dragged the boat backward so that the boat could never pass Guilin. Eventually, the frustrated imperial officials relented and allowed Wen Shi to remain home.
After Wen Shi died, the dragons were overwhelmed by sadness and took human form, becoming known as the Five Scholars (五秀才), who buried her on the northern side of Zhu Mountain (珠山).
The Long Mu summoned by Luo Guang is at her prime.
Stats - 23 Total
Strength: D - 3
Endurance: C - 5
Agility: A - 9
Mana: D - 3
Luck: D - 3
Abilities - 15 Total
Name: Riding - 8
Rank: EX
Can ride anything, including creatures on the level of Phantasmal Beast and Divine Beast, and Dragon Kind. Since Long Mu's riding skill is so high, and increased by her affinity with her dragon children, she can not be knocked off her mount against her will, and can freely switch between mounts even while in mid air or other treacherous conditions.
Name: Independent Action - 7
Rank: A++
Long Mu can remain in this world indefinitely even without a Master due to the mana generated by her dragons, "[c]reatures that generate prana merely by breathing." All her abilities can be used, because of the constant inflow of prana from her dragons. In addition, if the current round lasts for at least 2 days, Long Mu's abilities will actually increase by 10% due to a mana overflow from her dragons (this resets every round).
Long Mu is capable of protecting both herself and her master. With her high agility she can transport her master, and transfer him between mounts as she sees fit.
Noble Phantasms - 29 Total
Name: White Dragon Egg (白龙蛋) - 14
Rank: EX
Type: Support AND Anti-Unit (I added an extra point)
Part 1: The beautiful white egg that Long Mu thought was a stone. Long Mu starts out with this in a satchel on her back, and it cannot be separated from her under any circumstances due to her attachment to the egg. Activating this Noble Phantasm summons the 5 dragons of her legend, but in return it will deplete 3/4 of Long Mu's mana. This NP will automatically activate 5 minutes into the battle free of charge, as the dragons will naturally hatch. The dragons are always summoned instantaneously.
Part 2: If Long Mu is killed, the White Dragon Egg will instantaneously turn into Zhu Mountain (珠山), where Long Mu was buried, and also instantaneously trap the opponent underneath, using the fallen body of Long Mu as the seal.
Unless the opponent has EX Strength (to break free of the mountain), or at least A Luck or A Divinity (which will allow for a Chinese God to come along and free them NOTE: If your character is a full Chinese God, then she can free herself from the NP); OR the opponents master has A Strength (it is easier to break the seal than to escape from the mountain), A Luck, or A Divinity; the match is immediately called a draw.
This NP negates the effects of all the opponents NPs and abilities while the opponent is trapped under it, and the ability of the opponent to escape is solely dependent on the aforementioned stats. This NP can only activate if there is at least one dragon left alive to bury Long Mu when she dies. The only exception if Long Mu and all her dragons are dead, is that her master can still bury her, but only if his Strength is at least D and his Luck is at least A, AND if those requirements are met a coin must be tossed; if heads then the burial succeeds, if tails then the burial fails. The stat requirements of Luck A and the coin toss account for any opponent interference, so if Long Mu's master passes all these requirements then the burial effectively happens instantaneously (more description in the 5 Dragons NP).
Name: 5 Dragons (五龙) - 15
Rank: EX
Type: Anti-Fortress
The 5 powerful water based dragons that hatched from Long Mu's white egg. They are extremely devoted to Long Mu and will not attack her because of their high degree of Filial Devotion for her. All dragons can fly and swim, and travel across land. Each dragon is unique and has different abilities and stats. However, all dragons have A+ mana because they generate prana just from breathing. As a result of this, they can maintain themselves indefinitely.
Dragons do not die when they are killed. They instead enter a deep slumber, but in this state they can neither affect the world, nor be affected, thus being effectively dead. However, they will reawaken at the moment of Long Mu's death if there is a dragon that has not entered slumber. This dragon will call the other ones back awake and they will perform the burial ritual (more description later):
1. Mist Dragon:
Stats:
Strength: D
Endurance: B
Agility: A+
Mana: A+
Luck: B
Abilities:
Name: Instinct
Rank: A
Refined sixth sense is now close to true precognition. Bonus effect of reducing by half the penalties caused by obstructed vision and hearing.
Name: Presence Concealment
Rank: A+
It is possible to disappear completely and become almost impossible to be detected. However, efficacy will decrease once preparations to attack are taken.
The Mist Dragon can constantly create mist at will, shrouding the entire battlefield in it. The mist obscures the opponents vision, but the Mist Dragon extends sight inside the mist to itself and its allies so that they may navigate through it. The mist also has a side effect of providing an endless, albeit slow, stream of water in the air that can be utilized by the other dragons. This is Long Mu's main mount, as it is extremely fast and able to avoid attacks.
2. Storm Dragon:
Stats:
Strength: B
Endurance: C-
Agility: B
Mana: A+
Luck: E
Abilities:
Name: Mystic Eyes
Rank: B
The Storm Dragon possesses a passive binding type of mystic eyes, which strikes fear into the heart of his opponents. It lowers the opponents Agility by one rank. In addition, when used in conjunction with his lightning and thunder strikes, the opponent is paralyzed with fear for the short duration of the thunder clap.
Name: Knowledge of Respect and Harmony (Harmini lawl)
Rank: B
Attacks cannot be perceived by the enemy. No matter how many times the Storm Dragon uses his lightning and thunder strikes, they cannot be perceived by the enemy due to their erratic path. While the Storm Dragon is attacking with lightning and thunder under the cover of the mist, this ability is enforced.
The Storm Dragon is both agile and powerful, able to move quickly, hide in the storm clouds he creates, and still deliver special lightning and thunder strikes that pinpoint the enemy target. The Storm Dragon's special lightning is not conducted by water, and instead ignores obstacles, going directly the target. Lightning strikes also push away the objects in their path with a force of Strength B by compressing the air around them when they overheat.
3. Ice Dragon:
Stats:
Strength: D-
Endurance: B
Agility: C
Mana: A+
Luck: D
Abilities:
Name: Magic Resistance
Rank: A
Name: Protection from Arrows
Rank: A
Increased defense against ranged attacks by predicting the projectile trajectory through exceptional means such as hearing the sound of air being cut or sensing the killing intent of the enemy. The Ice Dragon can also use the mist surrounding the battle field to sense the path of ranged attacks.
The Ice Dragon is capable of protecting itself and all the other dragons summoned by Mu Long by creating magically strengthened patches of ice at any place in the battlefield. It can also use itself as a shield to protect its allies against magical and ranged attacks.
4. Tide Dragon:
Stats:
Strength: D
Endurance: EX
Agility: E
Mana: A+ (E in ocean form)
Luck: E
The Tide Dragon turns itself into an endless ocean, filling the entire battlefield. The ocean is not damaging toward the opponent (unless he jumps into the ocean and drowns in it). From his body the other dragons can draw water for their actions, and since the Tide Dragon creates an unlimited supply of ocean water, water resources are unlimited.
The Tide Dragon also has the ability to gently push and pull the opponent from any point in the battlefield, just as the tide pushes and pulls. The pushing and pulling motion is only equivalent to D Strength, but it can easily distract the opponent, and steer him off trajectory when he is traveling at high speeds.
Since the Tide Dragon itself is the ocean, it cannot be harmed. The Tide Dragon will fall into slumber (die) when Long Mu dies, and all the water will drain away.
5. Tsunami Dragon:
Stats:
Strength: A
Endurance: B
Agility: E
Mana: A+
Luck: E
Abilities:
Name: Monstrous Strength
Rank: B
Since Dragons can be counted as Phantasm Beasts, the Tsunami Dragon is capable of using this ability to increase its strength one parameter for 5 minutes at a time.
Name: Prana Burst
Rank: A
A normal weapon that is not on the level of a divine mystery can be destroyed in one blow. Raises defense in several times. The Tsunami Dragon can utilize this on itself and the tsunamis he creates, allowing it to travel short distances at Mach 6, and charging its waves with Prana.
The Tsunami Dragon is extremely strong, and when it is swimming inside the ocean it can create extremely large Tsunamis equivalent to the Tsunami Dragon's max strength plus the influence of Monstrous Strength.
When the dragons are called back awake at the moment of Long Mu's death, they instantaneously use their collective magic to freeze time for the duration of the burial ritual, where they bury Long Mu in the Zhu Mountain that the White Dragon Egg turns into. None will be able to move except the dragons, although the opponents will see flashes of the funeral immediately after they are released from the time freeze.
After the burial, they become the Five Scholars and wander off in human form, because they have no reason to fight now that their mother is gone.
NOTE: If there is still at least one dragon alive at the moment of Long Mu's death, the burial has a 100% chance of success, and the seal will be made. For instances where only the master is left at the moment of Long Mu's death, see the White Dragon Egg NP.
MASTER
Name: Luo Guang
Alignment: Neutral Good
Type: Combat
[Stats] - 23 Total
Strength: D (3.5)
Endurance: D (3.5)
Agility: E- (0.5)
Mana: C+ (6)
Luck: A (9.5)
Backstory:
Spoiler:
A mild-mannered boy, Luo Guang has been fascinated with dragons ever since he was small. His one true wish was to recreate Chinese dragons so that he could examine them first hand instead of studying about them in the textbooks in his family's library. He entered the Holy Grail war for this purpose, and it has continued to be his goal, even more so when he saw the splendor of Long Mu's beautiful water dragons. He summoned Long Mu with the fragment of her White Dragon Egg that was embedded in his Jade Dagger.
[Abilities] - 5 Total
Command Seals - 0
Rank: E
[Description] The crystallization of pure Prana granted by the Holy Grail to symbolize that the owner of the Seal is a Master. Typically consists of three parts and each part can be consumed to perform events on the level of miracles. Teleportation, temporary boost of attack and speed fourfold for 5 rounds, instant healing to the value that it would take to completely refill C+ rank endurance, or a Prana supply at the value that it would take to completely refill A rank Mana can be achieved with each use of the Seal.
This Seal contains three uses.
Name: Clairvoyance - 5
Rank: A
Description: Superior visual perception. Supplement long-range aiming and increases dynamic vision. Furthermore, at higher ranks it is possible to acquire precognition ("see into the future") and other forms of perception that are beyond normal eyesight (X-ray vision and the sorts). Luo Guang can see everything in the battlefield that lies within his line of sight. He can see through obstacles and toggle between the whole electromagnetic spectrum. His line of sight is extended 20 degrees on either side, giving him a vision span of 160 degrees. He can see any attack that will affect him at least 5 seconds before it happens, and any attack that will affect his allies at least 3 seconds before it happens.
[Mystic Code] - 3 Total
Name: Jade Dagger
Rank: E
Type: Support
Description: A Luo family heirloom. Luo Guang carries it wherever he goes. While it doesn't have any combat value, its significance to the Luo family and the piece of the original White Dragon Egg within it boosts his luck stat by a +, making it A+ luck.
- Spoiler:
- True Identity: Themis
Class: Saber
Alignment: Lawful Neutral
Stats
Strength: A (9)
Endurance: A+ (10)
Agility: A (9)
Mana: B (7)
Luck: E (0)
[big]Abilities[/big]
Name: Battle Continuation
Rank: EX (8 )
[Description]
Strength of vitality for predicaments. Also, the ability to withdraw from combat and reach allied territory alive after being defeated. Makes it possible to survive any amount of damage (even automatic kills) for long enough to make at least one final attack, use one final noble phantasm, or use one final spell.
Name: Knowledge of Respect and Harmony
Rank: B (4)
[Description]
Prevents decrease in the effectiveness of a technique, regardless how many times it is used against the same opponent. Attacks cannot be perceived by the enemy.
Name: Magic Resistance
Rank: C (3)
[Description]
Protection against magical effects. Differently from the Resistance effect that merely rejects prana, this ability cancels the spells altogether. Important to note that the term "verse" seen below refers to a set of three lines. Thus, a chant of two verses is equivalent to a Six-Line incantation. Cancel spells with a chant below two verses. Cannot defend against Magecraft on the level of High-Thaumaturgy and Greater Rituals. (Because she herself does not have any Magic Resistance, Nero boasts a low level that is unbecoming of the Saber Class)
Noble Phantasms
Name: Themis
Rank: EX (12)
Type: Anti-World (5)
[Description]
A gift of the gods and a mark of civilized existence, sometimes it means right custom, proper procedure, social order, and sometimes merely the will of the gods. It is the reality marble of order and law. As a result, it attempts to create a field in which one can only win through pure physical combat. It creates an empty, flat field with normal illumination, no barriers, no boundaries, and no mana in the atmosphere automatically (does not take any time to occur). Only this servant and the enemy servant are placed into the reality marble. All servants are treated as if they do not need their master to function and do not even have a master while in the marble. Masters cannot interfere with the reality marble from the outside. All noble phantasms, abilities, and magic/thaumaturgy of the enemy servant and this servant (except for this noble phantasm) are disabled and cannot be used in the reality marble. Only physical attacks may be used in this reality marble. Any damage that any one of the two servants had sustained prior to the activation of this noble phantasm are healed. In addition, any other active noble phantasms are deactivated (ex: army that a servant summons no longer exists). When one of the two servants dies, the reality marble is deactivated. This reality marble does not require mana to maintain (only to activate) because Gaia does not find a problem with a reality that tries to enforce order to the world.
Name: Pain On
Type: Support
Alignment: True Neutral
Stats
Strength: F (0)
Endurance: F (0)
Agility: F (0)
Mana: A (9.5)
Luck: E- (0.5)
Abilities
Name: Command Seals
Rank: E (0)
[Description]
The crystallization of pure Prana granted by the Holy Grail to symbolize that the owner of the Seal is a Master. Typically consists of three parts and each part can be consumed to perform events on the level of miracles. Teleportation, temporary boost of attack and speed fourfold for 5 rounds, instant healing to the value that it would take to completely refill C+ rank endurance, or a Prana supply at the value that it would take to completely refill A rank Mana can be achieved with each use of the Seal. This Seal contains three uses.
Mystic Code
Name: Hug of Pain On
Rank: B (8 )
Type: Support (1)
[Description]
Automatically revives the master’s servant from death to health equivalent to that necessary to completely refill D resistance. When the servant is revived, it is invulnerable from attacks for 1 second. This can only be used 3 times.
Ground: Slippery
Obstacles: None
Space: Medium
Mana Resources: Sufficient
Temperature: AMOS freezing
Lighting: Murky
Its an ice skating rink guys! Winter wonderland
. Except servants don't have skates and slip all over the place. Too bad.
Xenoe- Praetor
Nasuverse PhD
Posts : 1337
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Re: ~~GENERATION SIX, TIER TWO, ROUND ONE~~
by ZedSlayer 2010-12-15, 17:13
does Saber's reality marble stop Rider's dragons, if yes, Saber, if not, Rider
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Re: ~~GENERATION SIX, TIER TWO, ROUND ONE~~
by kaede 2010-12-15, 20:25
I'd say yes they affect the dragons because they are a part of a NP and the reality marble are disabled so I belive the answer is yes.
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Re: ~~GENERATION SIX, TIER TWO, ROUND ONE~~
by dinasemrys 2010-12-15, 20:44
"active noble phantasms are deactivated (ex: army that a servant summons no longer exists)." - I believe this applies to the dragons
In addition - "Only this servant and the enemy servant are placed into the reality marble." so the dragons dont even enter the actual battle
In addition - "Only this servant and the enemy servant are placed into the reality marble." so the dragons dont even enter the actual battle
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Re: ~~GENERATION SIX, TIER TWO, ROUND ONE~~
by Zhu Yang 2010-12-15, 20:59
This match is a draw. But, I vote for Rider.
Saber requires a chant to activate her NP.
While she is chanting, Rider activates 5 Dragons NP instantaneously (it's in the description) and kills herself.
This will activate Part 2 of the White Dragon Egg NP where the dragons will perform the burial ritual. The ritual will succeed because neither Saber nor her master has Divinity rank A, Saber does not have EX strength, her master does not have A strength, and neither Saber nor her master has A Luck.
Match is a draw, as Rider is dead, and Saber is sealed instantaneously under Zhu mountain with no way out. Note that the NP itself states that the match is immediately called a draw.
That was scenario one.
Alternatively, if Rider's dragons concentrate fire on Saber immediately after they're summoned, they could possibly kill her three times before she activates her Reality Marble. This all depends on how long Saber's chant is.
Keep in mind Tsunami dragon can pretty much perform EX Strength attack while using Prana Burst and Monstrous Strength. Also, Saber is hindered, with Agility down one rank while Storm Dragon is using Mystic Eyes.
Saber can't fly as far as I know, so she is unable to attack any of the dragons. This leaves her as a sitting duck while Storm and Tsunami dragon rain down attacks on her. Tide dragon also disorients her (only slightly though, because Saber has A strength).
Saber requires a chant to activate her NP.
While she is chanting, Rider activates 5 Dragons NP instantaneously (it's in the description) and kills herself.
This will activate Part 2 of the White Dragon Egg NP where the dragons will perform the burial ritual. The ritual will succeed because neither Saber nor her master has Divinity rank A, Saber does not have EX strength, her master does not have A strength, and neither Saber nor her master has A Luck.
Match is a draw, as Rider is dead, and Saber is sealed instantaneously under Zhu mountain with no way out. Note that the NP itself states that the match is immediately called a draw.
That was scenario one.
Alternatively, if Rider's dragons concentrate fire on Saber immediately after they're summoned, they could possibly kill her three times before she activates her Reality Marble. This all depends on how long Saber's chant is.
Keep in mind Tsunami dragon can pretty much perform EX Strength attack while using Prana Burst and Monstrous Strength. Also, Saber is hindered, with Agility down one rank while Storm Dragon is using Mystic Eyes.
Saber can't fly as far as I know, so she is unable to attack any of the dragons. This leaves her as a sitting duck while Storm and Tsunami dragon rain down attacks on her. Tide dragon also disorients her (only slightly though, because Saber has A strength).
Last edited by luogenhu on 2010-12-15, 21:10; edited 1 time in total
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Re: ~~GENERATION SIX, TIER TWO, ROUND ONE~~
by dinasemrys 2010-12-15, 21:06
If rider was to die in saber's reality marble, the white dragon egg cannot activate and so is useless. After rider leaves the reality marble, she is already dead and so the egg is useless. "If Long Mu is killed, the White Dragon Egg will instantaneously turn into Zhu Mountain" Sorry, when Long Mu is killed, the dragon egg cannot activate because it does not exist at that time. When Long Mu leaves the marble, the egg cannot activate because it only works when Long Mu is killed (not when she was already dead).
Plus look at sabers battle continuation - "Strength of vitality for predicaments. Also, the ability to withdraw from combat and reach allied territory alive after being defeated. Makes it possible to survive any amount of damage (even automatic kills) for long enough to make at least one final attack, use one final noble phantasm, or use one final spell." This guarantees that saber will be able to use her reality marble regardless of your attacks.
Plus look at sabers battle continuation - "Strength of vitality for predicaments. Also, the ability to withdraw from combat and reach allied territory alive after being defeated. Makes it possible to survive any amount of damage (even automatic kills) for long enough to make at least one final attack, use one final noble phantasm, or use one final spell." This guarantees that saber will be able to use her reality marble regardless of your attacks.
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Re: ~~GENERATION SIX, TIER TWO, ROUND ONE~~
by Corenat Rovarnus 2010-12-15, 21:07
[sarcasm] oh, the environment says its freezing, won't the masters freeze to death so the one with higher endurance wins. HUR HUR HUR. [/sarcasm]
don't be retarded guys. themis wins again with the gay street fighter thing. We're inching closer and closer to peinan vs me...the battle i put all my preparations into facing...
don't be retarded guys. themis wins again with the gay street fighter thing. We're inching closer and closer to peinan vs me...the battle i put all my preparations into facing...
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Re: ~~GENERATION SIX, TIER TWO, ROUND ONE~~
by dinasemrys 2010-12-15, 21:08
themis's master is support. freezing is useless
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Re: ~~GENERATION SIX, TIER TWO, ROUND ONE~~
by Zhu Yang 2010-12-15, 21:13
dinasemrys wrote:If rider was to die in saber's reality marble, the white dragon egg cannot activate and so is useless. After rider leaves the reality marble, she is already dead and so the egg is useless. "If Long Mu is killed, the White Dragon Egg will instantaneously turn into Zhu Mountain" Sorry, when Long Mu is killed, the dragon egg cannot activate because it does not exist at that time. When Long Mu leaves the marble, the egg cannot activate because it only works when Long Mu is killed (not when she was already dead).
Plus look at sabers battle continuation - "Strength of vitality for predicaments. Also, the ability to withdraw from combat and reach allied territory alive after being defeated. Makes it possible to survive any amount of damage (even automatic kills) for long enough to make at least one final attack, use one final noble phantasm, or use one final spell." This guarantees that saber will be able to use her reality marble regardless of your attacks.
Yes, but the problem is, Saber requires a CHANT to activate her Marble. By that time, Rider has already instantaneously summoned dragons and killed herself, trapping Saber under Zhu Mountain BEFORE she is able to activate her Reality Marble.
Also, while she is under the Mountain she cannot use any abilities or NPs, rendering her completely helpless. And by that time the match has already been called a draw.
Saber's chant is not instantaneous. Rider's summons and Zhu Mountain sealing are.
EDIT:
And so as I quote:
This has all been confirmed in the last tier, come on guys.Xenoe wrote:Reality marbles need chants if your the only one powering it. Iskander's bounded field was powered by the loyalty of his servants.
Last edited by luogenhu on 2010-12-15, 21:18; edited 1 time in total
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Re: ~~GENERATION SIX, TIER TWO, ROUND ONE~~
by dinasemrys 2010-12-15, 21:17
However, the egg's description does not mention anything about being able to consciously activate the mountain. It appears that the mountain only activates upon the user's death. Unless rider kills herself while next to saber, the mountain is useless
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Re: ~~GENERATION SIX, TIER TWO, ROUND ONE~~
by Zhu Yang 2010-12-15, 21:21
I don't understand your argument. The NP doesn't have any range on the mountain; it can trap Saber from anywhere.
Also, Rider has Clairvoyance rank A, so if Saber tries to run away, Rider can effectively predict Saber's movements catch up to her as they have the same Agility. Even more, Rider has already activated her 5 Dragons. She can just ride on one of them to catch up to Saber even faster (Mist Dragon or Tsunami Dragon with Prana Burst maybe?).
Rider is always able to maintain a presence next to Saber, even if she doesn't need to.
Also, Rider has Clairvoyance rank A, so if Saber tries to run away, Rider can effectively predict Saber's movements catch up to her as they have the same Agility. Even more, Rider has already activated her 5 Dragons. She can just ride on one of them to catch up to Saber even faster (Mist Dragon or Tsunami Dragon with Prana Burst maybe?).
Rider is always able to maintain a presence next to Saber, even if she doesn't need to.
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Re: ~~GENERATION SIX, TIER TWO, ROUND ONE~~
by dinasemrys 2010-12-15, 21:25
"If Long Mu is killed, the White Dragon Egg will instantaneously turn into Zhu Mountain (珠山), where Long Mu was buried, and also instantaneously trap the opponent underneath, using the fallen body of Long Mu as the seal."
This requires Long Mu to kill herself or die to be used. How can a fallen body of Long Mu be used as the seal if Long Mu is not dead?
This requires Long Mu to kill herself or die to be used. How can a fallen body of Long Mu be used as the seal if Long Mu is not dead?
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Re: ~~GENERATION SIX, TIER TWO, ROUND ONE~~
by ZedSlayer 2010-12-15, 21:28
If rider commits suicide its a DKO.
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Re: ~~GENERATION SIX, TIER TWO, ROUND ONE~~
by dinasemrys 2010-12-15, 21:31
but if she does not commit suicide, saber basically wins. This is because the dragons cannot kill saber before saber activates her noble.
In this case, there are two possible outcomes - saber wins or tie
Since more outcomes favor saber than rider, saber should win (there is a higher probability for saber to succeed)
In this case, there are two possible outcomes - saber wins or tie
Since more outcomes favor saber than rider, saber should win (there is a higher probability for saber to succeed)
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Re: ~~GENERATION SIX, TIER TWO, ROUND ONE~~
by Zhu Yang 2010-12-15, 21:40
Yes, it's already been established that Rider kills herself to use Zhu Mountain.
However, I still don't see your logic. You are examining a situation in which Rider does not kill herself and use Zhu Mountain. You are saying that Rider will choose NOT to activate her NP. From this you say there are more situations in which Saber wins, and therefore Saber wins as a whole.
Can I not then examine the situation in which Saber chooses not to activate her NP? In that situation Rider would definitely win. Even though Saber has 3 rezzes, she has no means of attacking Rider's flying dragons, and therefore Rider would win the match.
There can be infinite scenarios that we can examine. But from these we choose the most probable to examine, that the servants will do their best to achieve their goal.
That is the situation which I have previously stated, and from that Rider either forces a draw, or has her dragons kill Saber if her chant is long enough.
EDIT: You will probably agree, Peinan, that it is in Saber's interest to chant and activate her NP. Therefore, the above stated scenario is optimal for both servants, for situations in which Saber's chant is short, and situations in which Saber's chant is long.
However, I still don't see your logic. You are examining a situation in which Rider does not kill herself and use Zhu Mountain. You are saying that Rider will choose NOT to activate her NP. From this you say there are more situations in which Saber wins, and therefore Saber wins as a whole.
Can I not then examine the situation in which Saber chooses not to activate her NP? In that situation Rider would definitely win. Even though Saber has 3 rezzes, she has no means of attacking Rider's flying dragons, and therefore Rider would win the match.
There can be infinite scenarios that we can examine. But from these we choose the most probable to examine, that the servants will do their best to achieve their goal.
That is the situation which I have previously stated, and from that Rider either forces a draw, or has her dragons kill Saber if her chant is long enough.
EDIT: You will probably agree, Peinan, that it is in Saber's interest to chant and activate her NP. Therefore, the above stated scenario is optimal for both servants, for situations in which Saber's chant is short, and situations in which Saber's chant is long.
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Re: ~~GENERATION SIX, TIER TWO, ROUND ONE~~
by dinasemrys 2010-12-15, 21:56
i dont understand how rider killing herself is in her best interest. Clairvoyance is useless. "He can see any attack that will affect him at least 5 seconds before it happens, and any attack that will affect his allies at least 3 seconds before it happens." Saber's reality marble is not an attack. It simply alters the rules of the terrain. Rider would not know that she should kill herself.
Other servants and masters cannot tell rider because only servants can enter the reality marble and the only servant to leave alive is Themis. All other servants and masters are clueless of Themis' phantasm.
Themis always attempts to use her noble as soon as she can because she has very few alternative ways of combat. The chant can always be completed before death due to the guarantee of Themis' battle continuation
Other servants and masters cannot tell rider because only servants can enter the reality marble and the only servant to leave alive is Themis. All other servants and masters are clueless of Themis' phantasm.
Themis always attempts to use her noble as soon as she can because she has very few alternative ways of combat. The chant can always be completed before death due to the guarantee of Themis' battle continuation
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Re: ~~GENERATION SIX, TIER TWO, ROUND ONE~~
by Zhu Yang 2010-12-15, 22:10
Rider killing herself results in a draw. Rider failing to kill herself results in a total loss for her (assuming Saber's chant is short, not allowing dragons enough time to kill Saber). A draw is better than a loss, is it not?
Once again, you are assuming that Saber and Rider are already in the Reality Marble. They are not. Zhu Mountain activates before the Reality Marble, we already confirmed that.
Clairvoyance is not useless. Granted, it's use, however, is very limited. As we examine the description: "He can see any attack that will affect him at least 5 seconds before it happens, and any attack that will affect his allies at least 3 seconds before it happens."
ANY attack that can effect his allies at least 3 seconds before it happens. This refers to all possible attacks. Clairvoyance can actually be used to predict the event of Saber attacking Rider. This can be also be used to run Rider through against Saber's sword. I agree. Clairvoyance isn't really needed, because Rider can just commit suicide. Thank you for reminding me.
EDIT: Oh, I see what you mean. You say that we're assuming the servants don't know each other's abilities or NPs.
In that case, Saber does not know about Rider's master's Clairvoyance. Rider's master then, detects the fact that Saber will attack Rider as soon as they enter the Reality Marble, and then Rider kills herself and the match would be a draw.
We are assuming, of course, that Saber has no knowledge of Rider's master's Clairvoyance, and would immediately attack Rider when they enter the Reality Marble. Why waste time?
Before we proceed, let us confirm that Rider's dragons have already been activated instantaneously, because it is in Rider's best interest to activate her dragons.
As double insurance, Rider's Mist Dragon has A Instinct, which borders on Clairvoyance. The Mist Dragon senses that once Saber finishes her chant, it will not be there anymore, due to the Reality Marble deactivating NPs. It knows Rider will be in danger without her dragons (they lived together all their life, and the dragons know Rider's capabilities), and urges Rider to stop Saber at all costs. Thus Rider knows that she must kill herself, as she executes the plan that she and her master have gone over before.
The match is called a draw (assuming Saber has short chant time).
If Saber has long chant time, I still maintain that Rider wins.
Once again, you are assuming that Saber and Rider are already in the Reality Marble. They are not. Zhu Mountain activates before the Reality Marble, we already confirmed that.
Clairvoyance is not useless. Granted, it's use, however, is very limited. As we examine the description: "He can see any attack that will affect him at least 5 seconds before it happens, and any attack that will affect his allies at least 3 seconds before it happens."
ANY attack that can effect his allies at least 3 seconds before it happens. This refers to all possible attacks. Clairvoyance can actually be used to predict the event of Saber attacking Rider. This can be also be used to run Rider through against Saber's sword. I agree. Clairvoyance isn't really needed, because Rider can just commit suicide. Thank you for reminding me.
EDIT: Oh, I see what you mean. You say that we're assuming the servants don't know each other's abilities or NPs.
In that case, Saber does not know about Rider's master's Clairvoyance. Rider's master then, detects the fact that Saber will attack Rider as soon as they enter the Reality Marble, and then Rider kills herself and the match would be a draw.
We are assuming, of course, that Saber has no knowledge of Rider's master's Clairvoyance, and would immediately attack Rider when they enter the Reality Marble. Why waste time?
Before we proceed, let us confirm that Rider's dragons have already been activated instantaneously, because it is in Rider's best interest to activate her dragons.
As double insurance, Rider's Mist Dragon has A Instinct, which borders on Clairvoyance. The Mist Dragon senses that once Saber finishes her chant, it will not be there anymore, due to the Reality Marble deactivating NPs. It knows Rider will be in danger without her dragons (they lived together all their life, and the dragons know Rider's capabilities), and urges Rider to stop Saber at all costs. Thus Rider knows that she must kill herself, as she executes the plan that she and her master have gone over before.
The match is called a draw (assuming Saber has short chant time).
If Saber has long chant time, I still maintain that Rider wins.
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Re: ~~GENERATION SIX, TIER TWO, ROUND ONE~~
by Xenoe 2010-12-16, 01:30
Oh yes, just one note, support masters can't die, but if their servant gets removed from play, they lose. Support masters are like a buff tacked to the servant. Combat masters are like an extra health bar.
So if Saber were sealed under a mountain, and both masters were support, then it would indeed be Saber's win, yet Lou Guan is still alive and because he is a combat master he technically wins.
Just a side note, continue.
So if Saber were sealed under a mountain, and both masters were support, then it would indeed be Saber's win, yet Lou Guan is still alive and because he is a combat master he technically wins.
Just a side note, continue.
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Re: ~~GENERATION SIX, TIER TWO, ROUND ONE~~
by dinasemrys 2010-12-16, 06:11
There is no possible way for your servant to know that it will lose unless it kills itself.
Therefore, Rider cannot possibly know that it is in her best interest to kill herself.
Saber's reality marble does not endanger any servant in any way. It does not damage any servant mentally, physically, spiritually, magically, emotionally, etc. Instead, it heals both servants to full health and allows them to fight. Therefore, Instinct and Clairvoyance will not warn Rider of any dangers since the reality marble itself does not harm anyone. Note that creating a flat field is NOT AN ATTACK. It simply changes the rules of the game. Compared to computer games, Saber's np only makes both players change the game they're playing. It does not let one player attack another.
Although the Mist Dragon knows it will be separated, that is all it knows. Since Instinct is only bordering on precognition, it does not know how it will be separated. Many different events can separate the Mist Dragon from Rider. For example, it is possible that the Mist Dragon itself (not other dragons) will be killed in the future. Just because one of the dragons feels that Rider will not be near it (but not necessarily the other dragons) does not warrant enough reason for Rider to kill herself.
The way you're arguing implies that Rider kills herself whenever any servant is chanting for a long spell or reality marble that has a chance of separating Rider from her dragons (ex: teleportation).
Therefore, Rider cannot possibly know that it is in her best interest to kill herself.
Saber's reality marble does not endanger any servant in any way. It does not damage any servant mentally, physically, spiritually, magically, emotionally, etc. Instead, it heals both servants to full health and allows them to fight. Therefore, Instinct and Clairvoyance will not warn Rider of any dangers since the reality marble itself does not harm anyone. Note that creating a flat field is NOT AN ATTACK. It simply changes the rules of the game. Compared to computer games, Saber's np only makes both players change the game they're playing. It does not let one player attack another.
Although the Mist Dragon knows it will be separated, that is all it knows. Since Instinct is only bordering on precognition, it does not know how it will be separated. Many different events can separate the Mist Dragon from Rider. For example, it is possible that the Mist Dragon itself (not other dragons) will be killed in the future. Just because one of the dragons feels that Rider will not be near it (but not necessarily the other dragons) does not warrant enough reason for Rider to kill herself.
The way you're arguing implies that Rider kills herself whenever any servant is chanting for a long spell or reality marble that has a chance of separating Rider from her dragons (ex: teleportation).
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Re: ~~GENERATION SIX, TIER TWO, ROUND ONE~~
by nullset12 2010-12-16, 18:33
If rider in effect has no chance of winning(only of drawing or losing) then saber is the clear winner.
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