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~~GENERATION SIX, TIER TWO, ROUND ONE~~

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trolollolo make ur choice gaiz

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Post by Xenoe 2010-12-15, 16:14

Alright, since its the second level of this tourney, I feel that I should just do extended voting time for all battles. However, I am also extending the discussion time to 18 hours.
Let it begin!

rai-dah!!
Spoiler:

Seibaaa!!
Spoiler:

Ground: Slippery
Obstacles: None
Space: Medium
Mana Resources: Sufficient
Temperature: AMOS freezing
Lighting: Murky
Its an ice skating rink guys! Winter wonderland Very Happy. Except servants don't have skates and slip all over the place. Too bad.
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Post by ZedSlayer 2010-12-15, 17:13

does Saber's reality marble stop Rider's dragons, if yes, Saber, if not, Rider

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Post by kaede 2010-12-15, 20:25

I'd say yes they affect the dragons because they are a part of a NP and the reality marble are disabled so I belive the answer is yes.
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Post by dinasemrys 2010-12-15, 20:44

"active noble phantasms are deactivated (ex: army that a servant summons no longer exists)." - I believe this applies to the dragons

In addition - "Only this servant and the enemy servant are placed into the reality marble." so the dragons dont even enter the actual battle
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Post by Zhu Yang 2010-12-15, 20:59

This match is a draw. But, I vote for Rider.

Saber requires a chant to activate her NP.

While she is chanting, Rider activates 5 Dragons NP instantaneously (it's in the description) and kills herself.

This will activate Part 2 of the White Dragon Egg NP where the dragons will perform the burial ritual. The ritual will succeed because neither Saber nor her master has Divinity rank A, Saber does not have EX strength, her master does not have A strength, and neither Saber nor her master has A Luck.

Match is a draw, as Rider is dead, and Saber is sealed instantaneously under Zhu mountain with no way out. Note that the NP itself states that the match is immediately called a draw.

That was scenario one.

Alternatively, if Rider's dragons concentrate fire on Saber immediately after they're summoned, they could possibly kill her three times before she activates her Reality Marble. This all depends on how long Saber's chant is.

Keep in mind Tsunami dragon can pretty much perform EX Strength attack while using Prana Burst and Monstrous Strength. Also, Saber is hindered, with Agility down one rank while Storm Dragon is using Mystic Eyes.

Saber can't fly as far as I know, so she is unable to attack any of the dragons. This leaves her as a sitting duck while Storm and Tsunami dragon rain down attacks on her. Tide dragon also disorients her (only slightly though, because Saber has A strength).


Last edited by luogenhu on 2010-12-15, 21:10; edited 1 time in total
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Post by dinasemrys 2010-12-15, 21:06

If rider was to die in saber's reality marble, the white dragon egg cannot activate and so is useless. After rider leaves the reality marble, she is already dead and so the egg is useless. "If Long Mu is killed, the White Dragon Egg will instantaneously turn into Zhu Mountain" Sorry, when Long Mu is killed, the dragon egg cannot activate because it does not exist at that time. When Long Mu leaves the marble, the egg cannot activate because it only works when Long Mu is killed (not when she was already dead).

Plus look at sabers battle continuation - "Strength of vitality for predicaments. Also, the ability to withdraw from combat and reach allied territory alive after being defeated. Makes it possible to survive any amount of damage (even automatic kills) for long enough to make at least one final attack, use one final noble phantasm, or use one final spell." This guarantees that saber will be able to use her reality marble regardless of your attacks.
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Post by Corenat Rovarnus 2010-12-15, 21:07

[sarcasm] oh, the environment says its freezing, won't the masters freeze to death so the one with higher endurance wins. HUR HUR HUR. [/sarcasm]
don't be retarded guys. themis wins again with the gay street fighter thing. We're inching closer and closer to peinan vs me...the battle i put all my preparations into facing...
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Post by dinasemrys 2010-12-15, 21:08

themis's master is support. freezing is useless
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Post by Zhu Yang 2010-12-15, 21:13

dinasemrys wrote:If rider was to die in saber's reality marble, the white dragon egg cannot activate and so is useless. After rider leaves the reality marble, she is already dead and so the egg is useless. "If Long Mu is killed, the White Dragon Egg will instantaneously turn into Zhu Mountain" Sorry, when Long Mu is killed, the dragon egg cannot activate because it does not exist at that time. When Long Mu leaves the marble, the egg cannot activate because it only works when Long Mu is killed (not when she was already dead).

Plus look at sabers battle continuation - "Strength of vitality for predicaments. Also, the ability to withdraw from combat and reach allied territory alive after being defeated. Makes it possible to survive any amount of damage (even automatic kills) for long enough to make at least one final attack, use one final noble phantasm, or use one final spell." This guarantees that saber will be able to use her reality marble regardless of your attacks.

Yes, but the problem is, Saber requires a CHANT to activate her Marble. By that time, Rider has already instantaneously summoned dragons and killed herself, trapping Saber under Zhu Mountain BEFORE she is able to activate her Reality Marble.

Also, while she is under the Mountain she cannot use any abilities or NPs, rendering her completely helpless. And by that time the match has already been called a draw.

Saber's chant is not instantaneous. Rider's summons and Zhu Mountain sealing are.

EDIT:

And so as I quote:
Xenoe wrote:Reality marbles need chants if your the only one powering it. Iskander's bounded field was powered by the loyalty of his servants.
This has all been confirmed in the last tier, come on guys.


Last edited by luogenhu on 2010-12-15, 21:18; edited 1 time in total
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Post by dinasemrys 2010-12-15, 21:17

However, the egg's description does not mention anything about being able to consciously activate the mountain. It appears that the mountain only activates upon the user's death. Unless rider kills herself while next to saber, the mountain is useless
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Post by Zhu Yang 2010-12-15, 21:21

I don't understand your argument. The NP doesn't have any range on the mountain; it can trap Saber from anywhere.

Also, Rider has Clairvoyance rank A, so if Saber tries to run away, Rider can effectively predict Saber's movements catch up to her as they have the same Agility. Even more, Rider has already activated her 5 Dragons. She can just ride on one of them to catch up to Saber even faster (Mist Dragon or Tsunami Dragon with Prana Burst maybe?).

Rider is always able to maintain a presence next to Saber, even if she doesn't need to.
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Post by dinasemrys 2010-12-15, 21:25

"If Long Mu is killed, the White Dragon Egg will instantaneously turn into Zhu Mountain (珠山), where Long Mu was buried, and also instantaneously trap the opponent underneath, using the fallen body of Long Mu as the seal."

This requires Long Mu to kill herself or die to be used. How can a fallen body of Long Mu be used as the seal if Long Mu is not dead?
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Post by ZedSlayer 2010-12-15, 21:28

If rider commits suicide its a DKO.

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Post by dinasemrys 2010-12-15, 21:31

but if she does not commit suicide, saber basically wins. This is because the dragons cannot kill saber before saber activates her noble.

In this case, there are two possible outcomes - saber wins or tie

Since more outcomes favor saber than rider, saber should win (there is a higher probability for saber to succeed)
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Post by Zhu Yang 2010-12-15, 21:40

Yes, it's already been established that Rider kills herself to use Zhu Mountain.

However, I still don't see your logic. You are examining a situation in which Rider does not kill herself and use Zhu Mountain. You are saying that Rider will choose NOT to activate her NP. From this you say there are more situations in which Saber wins, and therefore Saber wins as a whole.

Can I not then examine the situation in which Saber chooses not to activate her NP? In that situation Rider would definitely win. Even though Saber has 3 rezzes, she has no means of attacking Rider's flying dragons, and therefore Rider would win the match.

There can be infinite scenarios that we can examine. But from these we choose the most probable to examine, that the servants will do their best to achieve their goal.

That is the situation which I have previously stated, and from that Rider either forces a draw, or has her dragons kill Saber if her chant is long enough.

EDIT: You will probably agree, Peinan, that it is in Saber's interest to chant and activate her NP. Therefore, the above stated scenario is optimal for both servants, for situations in which Saber's chant is short, and situations in which Saber's chant is long.
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Post by dinasemrys 2010-12-15, 21:56

i dont understand how rider killing herself is in her best interest. Clairvoyance is useless. "He can see any attack that will affect him at least 5 seconds before it happens, and any attack that will affect his allies at least 3 seconds before it happens." Saber's reality marble is not an attack. It simply alters the rules of the terrain. Rider would not know that she should kill herself.

Other servants and masters cannot tell rider because only servants can enter the reality marble and the only servant to leave alive is Themis. All other servants and masters are clueless of Themis' phantasm.

Themis always attempts to use her noble as soon as she can because she has very few alternative ways of combat. The chant can always be completed before death due to the guarantee of Themis' battle continuation
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Post by Zhu Yang 2010-12-15, 22:10

Rider killing herself results in a draw. Rider failing to kill herself results in a total loss for her (assuming Saber's chant is short, not allowing dragons enough time to kill Saber). A draw is better than a loss, is it not?

Once again, you are assuming that Saber and Rider are already in the Reality Marble. They are not. Zhu Mountain activates before the Reality Marble, we already confirmed that.

Clairvoyance is not useless. Granted, it's use, however, is very limited. As we examine the description: "He can see any attack that will affect him at least 5 seconds before it happens, and any attack that will affect his allies at least 3 seconds before it happens."

ANY attack that can effect his allies at least 3 seconds before it happens. This refers to all possible attacks. Clairvoyance can actually be used to predict the event of Saber attacking Rider. This can be also be used to run Rider through against Saber's sword. I agree. Clairvoyance isn't really needed, because Rider can just commit suicide. Thank you for reminding me.

EDIT: Oh, I see what you mean. You say that we're assuming the servants don't know each other's abilities or NPs.

In that case, Saber does not know about Rider's master's Clairvoyance. Rider's master then, detects the fact that Saber will attack Rider as soon as they enter the Reality Marble, and then Rider kills herself and the match would be a draw.

We are assuming, of course, that Saber has no knowledge of Rider's master's Clairvoyance, and would immediately attack Rider when they enter the Reality Marble. Why waste time?

Before we proceed, let us confirm that Rider's dragons have already been activated instantaneously, because it is in Rider's best interest to activate her dragons.

As double insurance, Rider's Mist Dragon has A Instinct, which borders on Clairvoyance. The Mist Dragon senses that once Saber finishes her chant, it will not be there anymore, due to the Reality Marble deactivating NPs. It knows Rider will be in danger without her dragons (they lived together all their life, and the dragons know Rider's capabilities), and urges Rider to stop Saber at all costs. Thus Rider knows that she must kill herself, as she executes the plan that she and her master have gone over before.

The match is called a draw (assuming Saber has short chant time).

If Saber has long chant time, I still maintain that Rider wins.


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Post by Xenoe 2010-12-16, 01:30

Oh yes, just one note, support masters can't die, but if their servant gets removed from play, they lose. Support masters are like a buff tacked to the servant. Combat masters are like an extra health bar.
So if Saber were sealed under a mountain, and both masters were support, then it would indeed be Saber's win, yet Lou Guan is still alive and because he is a combat master he technically wins.
Just a side note, continue.
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Post by dinasemrys 2010-12-16, 06:11

There is no possible way for your servant to know that it will lose unless it kills itself.

Therefore, Rider cannot possibly know that it is in her best interest to kill herself.

Saber's reality marble does not endanger any servant in any way. It does not damage any servant mentally, physically, spiritually, magically, emotionally, etc. Instead, it heals both servants to full health and allows them to fight. Therefore, Instinct and Clairvoyance will not warn Rider of any dangers since the reality marble itself does not harm anyone. Note that creating a flat field is NOT AN ATTACK. It simply changes the rules of the game. Compared to computer games, Saber's np only makes both players change the game they're playing. It does not let one player attack another.

Although the Mist Dragon knows it will be separated, that is all it knows. Since Instinct is only bordering on precognition, it does not know how it will be separated. Many different events can separate the Mist Dragon from Rider. For example, it is possible that the Mist Dragon itself (not other dragons) will be killed in the future. Just because one of the dragons feels that Rider will not be near it (but not necessarily the other dragons) does not warrant enough reason for Rider to kill herself.

The way you're arguing implies that Rider kills herself whenever any servant is chanting for a long spell or reality marble that has a chance of separating Rider from her dragons (ex: teleportation).
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Post by nullset12 2010-12-16, 18:33

If rider in effect has no chance of winning(only of drawing or losing) then saber is the clear winner.
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Post by Xenoe 2010-12-17, 16:47

Saber victorious!
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