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~GENERATION SIX, ROUND TWO~~

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Round Two

~GENERATION SIX, ROUND TWO~~ I_vote_lcap63%~GENERATION SIX, ROUND TWO~~ I_vote_rcap 63% 
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Post by Xenoe on 2010-12-08, 19:23

Alright, discuss.

Casta!!
Caster:
Spoiler:
Master
Name: Demonic Spirit Medea
Alignment: Neutral Evil
Type: Combat

Stats
Strength:F
Endurance:F
Agility:F
Mana:A
Luck:D

Abilities
High Speed Divine Level Thaumaturgy: A
Command Seal: A

Mystic Code
Rule Breaker: C

Servant
Name: Circe
Class: Caster
Alignment: Lawful Evil

Stats:35
Strength:C+
Endurance:C+
Agility:A
Mana:A+
Luck:C

Abilities:15
High Speed Divine Level Thaumaturgy: A
Clairvoyance: A
Prana Burst: A

Noble Phantasm
Name: Polymorphism
Rank: EX
Type: Anti-World (17)
Complete and total mastery of a special field of magic. With this, Caster may turn anything, be it human, plant, weapon, or even an entire army, all at once, into an animal of her choosing. When turned into an animal, her target’s stats are all reduced to F and they are incapable of making any action whatsoever. The amount of time that her transformation lasts is dependent on the amount of atmospheric mana available:
No mana: 6 hours
Sufficient mana: 12 hours
Good mana: 24 hours
Extremely High mana: Indefinitely

Seibaaa!!
Saber:
Spoiler:
True Identity: Themis
Class: Saber
Alignment: Lawful Neutral

Stats
Strength: A (9)
Endurance: A+ (10)
Agility: A (9)
Mana: B (7)
Luck: E (0)

[big]Abilities[/big]
Name: Battle Continuation
Rank: EX (8 )
[Description]
Strength of vitality for predicaments. Also, the ability to withdraw from combat and reach allied territory alive after being defeated. Makes it possible to survive any amount of damage (even automatic kills) for long enough to make at least one final attack, use one final noble phantasm, or use one final spell.

Name: Knowledge of Respect and Harmony
Rank: B (4)
[Description]
Prevents decrease in the effectiveness of a technique, regardless how many times it is used against the same opponent. Attacks cannot be perceived by the enemy.

Name: Magic Resistance
Rank: C (3)
[Description]
Protection against magical effects. Differently from the Resistance effect that merely rejects prana, this ability cancels the spells altogether. Important to note that the term "verse" seen below refers to a set of three lines. Thus, a chant of two verses is equivalent to a Six-Line incantation. Cancel spells with a chant below two verses. Cannot defend against Magecraft on the level of High-Thaumaturgy and Greater Rituals. (Because she herself does not have any Magic Resistance, Nero boasts a low level that is unbecoming of the Saber Class)

Noble Phantasms
Name: Themis
Rank: EX (12)
Type: Anti-World (5)
[Description]
A gift of the gods and a mark of civilized existence, sometimes it means right custom, proper procedure, social order, and sometimes merely the will of the gods. It is the reality marble of order and law. As a result, it attempts to create a field in which one can only win through pure physical combat. It creates an empty, flat field with normal illumination, no barriers, no boundaries, and no mana in the atmosphere automatically (does not take any time to occur). Only this servant and the enemy servant are placed into the reality marble. All servants are treated as if they do not need their master to function and do not even have a master while in the marble. Masters cannot interfere with the reality marble from the outside. All noble phantasms, abilities, and magic/thaumaturgy of the enemy servant and this servant (except for this noble phantasm) are disabled and cannot be used in the reality marble. Only physical attacks may be used in this reality marble. Any damage that any one of the two servants had sustained prior to the activation of this noble phantasm are healed. In addition, any other active noble phantasms are deactivated (ex: army that a servant summons no longer exists). When one of the two servants dies, the reality marble is deactivated. This reality marble does not require mana to maintain (only to activate) because Gaia does not find a problem with a reality that tries to enforce order to the world.

Name: Pain On
Type: Support
Alignment: True Neutral

Stats
Strength: F (0)
Endurance: F (0)
Agility: F (0)
Mana: A (9.5)
Luck: E- (0.5)

Abilities
Name: Command Seals
Rank: E (0)
[Description]
The crystallization of pure Prana granted by the Holy Grail to symbolize that the owner of the Seal is a Master. Typically consists of three parts and each part can be consumed to perform events on the level of miracles. Teleportation, temporary boost of attack and speed fourfold for 5 rounds, instant healing to the value that it would take to completely refill C+ rank endurance, or a Prana supply at the value that it would take to completely refill A rank Mana can be achieved with each use of the Seal. This Seal contains three uses.

Mystic Code
Name: Hug of Pain On
Rank: B (8 )
Type: Support (1)
[Description]
Automatically revives the master’s servant from death to health equivalent to that necessary to completely refill D resistance. When the servant is revived, it is invulnerable from attacks for 1 second. This can only be used 3 times.

Ground: Sunken/Bog
Obstacles: None
Space: Vast
Mana Resources: Sufficient
Temperature: Holy Schit its Freezing
Lighting: Illuminated


Last edited by Xenoe on 2010-12-08, 21:26; edited 2 times in total
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Post by Corenat Rovarnus on 2010-12-08, 19:35

wow fail I thought sandy was gonna have two masters, trolololololololol. These guys have very similar abilities, I guess it depends on who can strike first to win. I believe Circe's clairvoyance gives the edge and first move being a higher rank than Themis' knowledge of respect and harmony.
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Post by InteroVegas on 2010-12-08, 19:44

Themis win, Law and Order NP, much stronger physically, win.
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Post by nullset12 on 2010-12-08, 19:47

Lets just say that Themis' stats are too high for circe to do anything
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Post by Capitalist Pig on 2010-12-08, 19:48

Firstly, Themis, with no sword or any such weapon specified, hardly qualifies to be a Saber.
Secondly, Here's how the battle goes down:
Battle begins, saber puts caster in the reality marble, medea uses the command spell to remove caster from the reality marble, caster turns the reality marble into a sheep, then turns saber into a duck, repeat until saber stays dead.
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Post by dinasemrys on 2010-12-08, 20:31

All servants are treated as if they do not need their master to function and do not even have a master while in the marble. The command seal is useless. the link between master and servant is cut off. The servants DO NOT EVEN HAVE masters while in the marble. They dont have masters to use command seal to get them out.

Clairvoyance does not allow faster attacks. Being able to predict an event does not mean you can stop it. Themis does not need to specifically target Circe. As soon as the marble starts, the two closest servants are dragged in. Arguing that Medea is a servant is meaningless since she is the master and the reality marble does not target the master. On the other hand, Circe's phantasm seems to have to specify a target. This is more difficult and takes longer to use (not having to point a weapon is faster than having to actually point it).

Themis is commonly depicted as a sword. It simply is not a noble phantasm. A servant does not need to have a main weapon in the form of its class (archer from fate stay technically has no bow or arrow noble phantasms). I did not put the sword in description because I do not believe descriptions actually count for anything.

In the worst case scenario, assuming circe actually lands the first hit, circe has to first kill themis to win the match. at that point, themis is revived by her master and given invulnerability for long enough to once again activate her noble phantasm.


Last edited by dinasemrys on 2010-12-08, 20:35; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Xenoe on 2010-12-08, 20:33

Btw, there is a maximum range of 200 meters on the reality marble.


Last edited by Xenoe on 2010-12-08, 20:52; edited 1 time in total
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Post by kaede on 2010-12-08, 20:47

Themis activates her reality marble cutting off both servants from there masters meaning circe cant be forced out by her masters command spell. While inside the RM both servants noble phantasms (except for the reality marble), abilities, and magic/thaumaturgy are disabled turning the match into a melee match. In a physcal only fight caster loses because she is made for turning her opponent into a defenceless animal and killing them with no hassle while Saber is made for melee fights.
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Post by Zhu Yang on 2010-12-08, 20:49

OK, first of all, command seals cannot be used while the servants are inside the MP. "Only this servant and the enemy servant are placed into the reality marble. All servants are treated as if they do not need their master to function and do not even have a master while in the marble. Masters cannot interfere with the reality marble from the outside."
Since this applies, the command seals shouldn't function as normal, and thus should not be able to teleport the servants out of the Marble.

After looking up the definition of a reality marble, and looking through the abilities, I have some questions:
-Is Polymorphism instantaneous? Or does the transformation occur over a period of time?
-Since a Reality Marble is just a bounded field on steroids, can't Caster simply just run away (with A Agility) until she reaches the bounds, if the Marble does not specify that things are kept in and out ("it creates an empty, flat field with normal illumination, no barriers, no boundaries"). Adding on to that, does this Reality Marble adhere to the rules of a regular Reality Marble, which allows it to be disrupted by large bursts of Prana? However, Gaia does accept the Reality Marble, so maybe that would contribute to its stability regarding large bursts of mana.
-What is the policy on Rule Breaker and Reality Marbles? Rule Breaker can "dispell and destroy any type of thaumaturgy", but I have doubts as to whether that applies to Reality Marbles. But since Reality Marbles are a type of bounded field that function on the "thaumaturgical theory", shouldn't it apply?
-What does Caster gain from an "A" rank Command Seal? =_=
-What is the definition of a support master? It can't be harmed or anything, but is it actually out on the field? In that case, both masters freeze to death since the temperature is freezing? Adding to that, what is the mechanism for Hug of Pain On? I'd assume the master would be on the field to hug the servant, and thus the servant would be revived.

@@Peinan:
It's also arguable that activating a Reality Marble takes longer than affecting a single target. After all, Archer and Shiro needed to go through a whole chant to activate Unlimited Blade Works.
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Post by Capitalist Pig on 2010-12-08, 20:54

Polymorphism is instantaneous.
from an A rank command seal, I gain 4 extra uses of my command spell, for a total of 7 uses.
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Post by dinasemrys on 2010-12-08, 20:57

A rank command seal is just more command seals. No other benefits.

Rule breaker is pointless because Masters cannot interfere with the reality marble from the outside.

You cant run out of it...

Like u said, Gaia's acceptance makes it stable

Support master cant be harmed. I never said it was a hug. The name includes the word hug but that doesnt mean anything. It simply says: Automatically revives the master’s servant from death to health equivalent to that necessary to completely refill D resistance. When the servant is revived, it is invulnerable from attacks for 1 second. This can only be used 3 times.
I do not see anything about having to hug anything (this is also supported by the idea that gate of babylon isnt actually a physical gate but is a dimensional key)

Archer and Shiro are fail magi. Chants are to help focus. Iskander did not chant to release his reality marble.


Last edited by dinasemrys on 2010-12-08, 20:59; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Xenoe on 2010-12-08, 20:57

She gains 7 uses of CSeal.
Support masters automatically lose when their servants die.
Rule breaker cannot dispel ideas or the divine enchantments on Noble Phantasms.
Polymorphism has a short to medium chant, as seen in the Odyssey when Odysseus surprises Circe with his blade and she is unable to do anything.
Reality marbles need chants if your the only one powering it. Iskander's bounded field was powered by the loyalty of his servants.
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Post by ZedSlayer on 2010-12-08, 21:04

@Capitalist Pig wrote:Firstly, Themis, with no sword or any such weapon specified, hardly qualifies to be a Saber.
Sandow, stop trying to invalidate the other servants after they are reveiled, it really does just piss people off

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Post by dinasemrys on 2010-12-08, 21:11

Circe cant chant two things at one right?

If Themis charges at Medea, Circe kinda has to use spells to defend cuz Medea can get killed easily (with F endurance, I assume Medea would go down in one hit from someone with A rank strength). While Circe is usin high speed divine words spells, she cannot chant. However, Themis can attack while chanting since she does not need to talk to attack.
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Post by Zhu Yang on 2010-12-08, 21:25

Although it is highly improbable that Caster would be able to use Polymorphism before the Reality Marble activated because of it's chant requirement, would she be able to target the Support Master, since turning them into a pig isn't actually harming them? Adding to that, I'm assuming Themis is instantaneously activated.

Since it is safe to assume that Themis doubles as a mundane sword, can it also be assumed that Caster can fly?

If you can't run out of the Reality Marble, what happens when you reach the end of it, since it has a radius of 200 meters?

"Only physical attacks may be used in this reality marble." Does this allow magical/ranged attacks such as Gandr/arrows that are physical in nature, and simply forbade techniques like coercion or hypnosis? Or does physical attacks mean point blank range?

BTW, am I correct in assuming that since Caster doesn't have Independent Action, her time is limited (cause Medea is going to freeze to death out in the cold)? Or, does the Reality Marble change the temperature conditions as well, since it changes the landscape to a flat plain?

@@Peinan, Medea also has High Speed Divine Words, and A mana, so I'm assuming that the Caster master-servant pair can cross-protect.
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Post by nullset12 on 2010-12-08, 21:28

All of caster's attributes are irrelavent if themis gets the reality marble off.
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Post by Zhu Yang on 2010-12-08, 21:31

@nullset12 wrote:All of caster's attributes are irrelavent if themis gets the reality marble off.
I'm assuming Peinan was referring to before the Reality Marble is activated, because he describes Saber rushing Medea (which can't happen once the Marble is activated).

BTW, GM needs to clarify how long Themis' chant is, since we've been told how long Caster's is.
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Post by dinasemrys on 2010-12-08, 21:36

Gandr would be magic/thaumaturgy
Flying would be magic/thaumaturgy.

I believe support types simply cant even be targetted...

Independent action does not matter. That would make it unfair for caster while in the marble. Servants dont need masters while in it.

Arrows that the servant has when it enters are ok (after entrance, arrows cant be replaced cuz their are not materials)

Although Medea also has High Speed Divine Words, and A mana, she still cannot survive if attacked by saber... Therefore, themis would also have to devote some effort to protecting medea.
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Post by Corenat Rovarnus on 2010-12-08, 21:58

Vroop wrote:Although it is highly improbable that Caster would be able to use Polymorphism before the Reality Marble activated because of it's chant requirement, would she be able to target the Support Master, since turning them into a pig isn't actually harming them? Adding to that, I'm assuming Themis is instantaneously activated.
Since it is safe to assume that Themis doubles as a mundane sword, can it also be assumed that Caster can fly?
If you can't run out of the Reality Marble, what happens when you reach the end of it, since it has a radius of 200 meters?
I think the 200 meters is for the initial drag in (dragon lol I dunno lol) on activation, the field's terrain itself would be as large as the owner wants it.
@nullset12 wrote:All of caster's attributes are irrelavent if themis gets the reality marble off.
you mean listed abilities and noble phantasms. stats aren't affected unless you have mad enhancement....which is another thing themis can take away.
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Post by Zhu Yang on 2010-12-08, 22:05

Discussion about before the Reality Marble is activated:
I'm pretty sure Caster used some sort of jelly thing to delay Saber at least a few seconds. Since Medea has the same Mana stat, I don't see why she couldn't do the same. Plus, Saber only has C Magic Resistance, which would allow Medea to entrap Saber in there longer. Also, Caster can cast a simple reinforce on Medea's jelly construct, or shield whatever suits you, to further delay Saber. Caster shouldn't even have to speak to cast reinforcement. However, Saber can still chant to activate her Reality Marble while she's in the jelly/delayed by the forcefield.

So, I'm pretty sure team Caster could survive at least long enough until Saber finishes chanting her RM.

Flying I don't really consider an attack, and I read your NP as limiting the attacks to physical only, but I'll let the GM decide.

So far I'm going to vote for Saber, because even though Caster can survive until the RM, once inside she can only run until she wears out, because although they travel the same speed with A agility, Saber has better endurance.

Still waiting on GM to confirm Saber's chanting time, just in case.
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Post by Corenat Rovarnus on 2010-12-08, 22:14

I'm voting for saber. Here's the ways I think the battle would turn out, giving both sides an equal chance.
Case 1: Themis is able to activate the reality marble on caster before caster can stop her. Without her abilities(Divine Words) and NP, she can only cast spells 1 verse at a time(and maybe not even that), so Themis can easily just run up and take her down.

Case 2: Themis might not be able to activate her NP before Circe does, but she might be able to rush in and inflict a mortal melee blow on Circe while she is chanting polymorphism. with A rank agility, this is perfectly possible. If you think the master can stop this, refer to Case 3.

Case 3: Assuming Caster is able to cast polymorphism on saber before Themis can do anything, or if the rush in isn't effective(disrupted by master, etc.) then she's turned into a pig/whatever fail animal. Themis' stats are reduced to F, meaning that caster can either squash Themis or wait for the 6 hours to run out. But it is really a hobson's choice, because if she simply waits for polymorphism to wear off, Themis will just rush her with a falconjustice punch and Circe gets pwned. Now, you may think that's the wrong choice to make, so Circe won't do it. So suppose Circe kills the polymorphed Themis. Battle Continuation is still in effect because it is passive, so Themis is in a semi-living state. Pain On is a support master, meaning Circe cannot stop him from using the HUG to revive Themis. Themis is completely invincible from attacks for 1 second, and peinan has stated that activating the reality marble takes less than a second, meaning that trying polymorphism again will do absolutely nothing against her respawn protection(as well as anything the master tries) and Themis has more than enough time to impose the Law and Order. Refer to Case 1.

Now for the grand finale: Having Clairvoyance, Circe looked into the future and saw that she was already GAY-MOS in all of these outcomes. What would she do? Surrender? lol.
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Post by Corenat Rovarnus on 2010-12-08, 22:19

Vroop wrote:Discussion about before the Reality Marble is activated:
I'm pretty sure Caster used some sort of jelly thing to delay Saber at least a few seconds. Also, Caster can cast a simple reinforce on Medea's jelly construct, or shield whatever suits you, to further delay Saber. Caster shouldn't even have to speak to cast reinforcement. However, Saber can still chant to activate her Reality Marble while she's in the jelly/delayed by the forcefield.
U JELLY SABER? Very Happy Ok, that isn't mentioned anywhere in the sheet but since its Caster this is fine. Anyways, if she does get trapped in the jelly, sandy's team will naturally take the optimal path and kill themis right away or after polymorphism. Battle Continuation, Hug of Pain On comes into effect. The hug grants invincibility so this time the jelly doesn't work.
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Post by Zhu Yang on 2010-12-08, 22:31

Actually, I can think of a loophole which would allow Caster to continuously kill Saber 3 times without break:

ASSUMING Caster gets Polymorphism off (which she really really probably won't), she can just start chanting for the next Polymorphism while Saber's trapped as a pig. Never says you can't cast it twice on the same entity.

Right before the chant's completion (there can be a long pause, just look at Archer doing attacks between verses in UBW chant), Caster and Medea spam lazorz and kill Saber (with only C magic resistance, she is actually rather vulnerable to attacks on the level of High Speed Divine Words), and then finish off Polymorphism right after Saber is resurrected.

But, it's not like this will ever occur :/

@Corenat Rovarnus wrote:and peinan has stated that activating the reality marble takes less than a second
Actually, Peinan never stated that activating his NP takes less than a second, and it's been verified by GM that he needs to go through a chant to activate it.
@Xenoe wrote:Reality marbles need chants if your the only one powering it. Iskander's bounded field was powered by the loyalty of his servants.

Wait, it actually doesn't seem too ridiculous now that I think about it, depending on the length of Saber's chant.
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Post by Capitalist Pig on 2010-12-08, 22:36

I can turn saber into a pig even while she's rezzing, because hug of Pain on is only B rank while my magic is EX. I outrank him.
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Post by Zhu Yang on 2010-12-08, 22:42

@Capitalist Pig wrote:I can turn saber into a pig even while she's rezzing, because hug of Pain on is only B rank while my magic is EX. I outrank him.
However, that's all moot if Saber can activate her Reality Marble before Caster activates Polymorphism. Hence why we need a chant length confirmation...
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Post by Capitalist Pig on 2010-12-08, 22:48

OWAIT WAIT WAIT
I can beat Saber. easily.
So, I kill Saber once. before saber is resurrected, I use a command spell so that Caster, holding Medea, can escape to a place outside of the range in which they can be absorbed by the reality marble. after that has failed, we use another command spell to teleport back, and turn saber into a pig and kill her. repeat. U JELLY?
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Post by Zhu Yang on 2010-12-08, 23:07

1. You're assuming you can kill Saber once.
2. Using this logic, Saber and her master can teleport away and just chant away. You have no way to find them, as you don't know where they teleported to. While you're still trying to find them, Saber has already activated her RM.
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Post by Capitalist Pig on 2010-12-08, 23:10

But I already know where they teleported to because of my Clairvoyance.
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Post by kaede on 2010-12-08, 23:10

Wouldnt that fail because during the time you teleport away saber could finish the chant but hold off on activating it until you come back then activate it when your in range?
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Post by Capitalist Pig on 2010-12-08, 23:13

If they tried pulling that on me I would see it coming. With my clarivoyance.
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Post by Corenat Rovarnus on 2010-12-08, 23:48

Uh huh, so you wouldn't go close to her, and then what? It's just a stalemate then. Unless you have some sort of offensive spell with a range greater than 200 meters that Themis can't easily dodge, you can't do anything.
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Post by Zhu Yang on 2010-12-09, 00:02

Wait, but does your command spell teleport the master as well as the servant? I thought it only affected the servant.
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Post by The Lord Kelvin on 2010-12-09, 00:14

yeah it can only affect the servant
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Post by Corenat Rovarnus on 2010-12-09, 00:20

I think it would work if the servant was carrying the master with her after the command was given.

Oh yeah, and if you did have an attack that ranged greater than 200 meters, was undodgeable to A rank agility, AND could either do enough one shot damage or have a fast enough firing rate to kill an Eirei with A+ endurance, it would be listed as a Noble Phantasm or ability. which it isn't, and don't say High Speed Divine Thaumaturgy includes it, because Caster obviously can't replicate the attack power of Enuma Elish or Excalibur without a strong catalyst.
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Post by kaede on 2010-12-09, 01:19

I'd like to know why was a master thats also a servant approved?
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Post by Corenat Rovarnus on 2010-12-09, 02:14

oh felix said he didn't care who the master was, only the servant has to be female and not used before
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Post by kaede on 2010-12-09, 02:26

So someone could have created gilgamesh with GoB and he would have taken it?
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Post by dinasemrys on 2010-12-09, 05:44

sandow, although your clairvoyance is of a higher rank than themis' knowledge of respect and harmony, knowledge of respect and harmony still makes it difficult for your servant to predict themis' actions. Basically, your future sight ability is useless but you can still see far away. You cannot predict the future if the enemy is unpredictable.
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Post by Corenat Rovarnus on 2010-12-09, 13:31

Nina wrote:So someone could have created gilgamesh with GoB and he would have taken it?
yeah, have fun making a gilgamesh with gate of babylon using 31 points
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Post by nullset12 on 2010-12-09, 17:37

It'll be weak as hell but why would you even want that?
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Post by Xenoe on 2010-12-09, 18:01

Saber, Crushingly victorious!
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Post by Corenat Rovarnus on 2010-12-09, 18:21

@nullset12 wrote:It'll be weak as hell but why would you even want that?

nina's idea, that's what I was trying to convey.
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Post by nullset12 on 2010-12-10, 10:21

Sandow should win ! I move my vote to sandows
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Post by Guest on 2010-12-10, 10:38

Did Sandow create Saber or Caster?

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Post by Corenat Rovarnus on 2010-12-10, 13:37

Thanks for introducing yourself faggot, this match is over already. Phallics, please do a vote check, and do not count this guy's vote. I'm going to ask sean if he can still log in.
Also, I'm suspending all of sandy's executive powers, I suspect something fishy is going on.
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Post by Capitalist Pig on 2010-12-10, 15:08

-______________- No I haven't hacked Quan.
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Post by kaede on 2010-12-10, 15:29

You have to understand it does look that way he was in support for saber then switches to caster...but this is meaningless saber was declared the winner this topic shoud be locked.
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Post by Xenoe on 2010-12-10, 16:34

Relocking, stop messing with this Quan D:<.
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