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Post by M. Ainsel on 2010-05-15, 11:35

Ok, so I thought I should make this post for the poor people out there who are confused about the Fate/Stay Night Plotline (including, in part, me).
So first question for our residential F/SN Masters:

In Fate route, Keire is killed by Shiro using a magic dagger that Rin gave him. We know the Tohsaka's are all about mana storage, blah blah blah, and the dagger has over 9000 mana in it or something.

But in Fate/Zero, we know that Keire is...
1) Bullet Proof, at least against sub-machine guns
2) Strong enough to overcome mana-charged objects (the ropes someone tied around him to capture him or something)

So why would a dagger, which I am certain is not a noble phantasm, be able to harm let alone kill Keire? Last time I checked, Shiro isn't physically strong enough to make a dagger do anything close to gun-like damage.
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Post by Xenoe on 2010-05-15, 12:55

Because the Azoth dagger has been charged with mana since the day Rin received it, so it has even more mana in it than 10 jewels combined, giving it Caliburn level power. Thus the power surpasses most noble phantasms and is able to kill Kirei, the dagger of course is more powerful in this sense, than an armor piercing tank shell.
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Post by The Lord Kelvin on 2010-05-15, 20:56

um... kirei isn't bulletproof..... read fate/zero
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Post by Corenat Rovarnus on 2010-05-15, 21:46

Oh yeah, in fate zero it says that his monk's robes are bulletproof. but aren't they still bulletproof in FSN? Or is he like no I'm going to wear a badass longcoat instead screw kevlar I look cool

Alright, I've got it. He probably still wears bulletproof clothing during the battle in FSN, but apparently because kevlar is cloth it provides poor protection against slicing and stab attacks. When he breaks those bonds in fate zero, those were simply meant to restrain him, not hurt or kill him. He was just able to match proportionate strength to break the bonds. it's kind of stupid to try and match proportionate strength to break a dagger with your shoulder against the tip, you tend to just get hurt a lot more.

felix, I was wrong about kirei being bulletproof and you didn't correct this, going on with that assumption in you explanation. hence you have contradicted yourself.
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Post by M. Ainsel on 2010-05-15, 22:55

Ahh, ok. But wait, if Rin had this awesome dagger that was better than most Phantasms that Keire gave her in the first place, Keire should have known that she had it hidden somewhere. This is the guy that engineered the whole plot in Fate route to his advantage, I don't think he would leave something as important as a super-powerful artifact in the hands of a known enemy (that he just beat up). In fact, why he didn't just rip her head off? He thinks its good for people to die, and he just passed up the opportunity to kill someone. IDK that whole scene doesn't seem to make much sense.
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Post by Guest on 2010-05-15, 23:05

I don't know what you are guys are talking about but from what I can gather about logic, even if Kirei knows about the dagger you would assume that the tosaka family would have some measures to guard it and probably had it hidden somewhere when not being used, and just because you someone has a weapon doesn't mean you know where, take america and arabs, we know they have nukes we just don't know where.

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Post by M. Ainsel on 2010-05-15, 23:10

It was hidden on her body, Amos.
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Post by Guest on 2010-05-15, 23:15

Ok well is Kirei Catholic? If not, then its a fine hiding place.

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Post by Corenat Rovarnus on 2010-05-16, 16:40

Michael quit spelling Kirei wrong, you are disgracing him. Sorry Amos but he is Catholic, that's one of the most important things in Nasuverse, the Catholic church is one of the superpowers along with the Magus Association and the Dead Apostle Ancestors.

Ok, I'm going out on a limb here on assuming this, but Rin was Kirei's apprentice in magecraft when her father was alive. It's a tradition to give an apprentice a magic dagger or something when they graduate, so Kirei gave her the Azoth dagger when she became a full fledged magus. I really hope you guys remember that Kirei spoke about his regrets for doing that when he got shirowned. Also, I think you give Kirei too much credit for his planning skills, its not like he's the
Clock King, if you want an extreme advance planner check out Zoken Matou. Anyway, his key mistake that led to his defeat was that he assumed that Rin wouldn't give the dagger to shiro, the only person with a servant left to challenge him. Now at first this seems stupid, but remember how when shiro came back to his house rin looked like she was going to die(or ran out of tampons Razz). Kirei thought he had 0wned her enough that she wouldn't be able to tell shiro about the magical ass-dagger, and there you go.
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Post by Guest on 2010-05-16, 17:09

ohh the whole illyia thing makes sense, Kirei is catholic, she looks like a little girl . . . .

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Post by Xenoe on 2010-05-16, 20:12

He freaken sticks her on a cross and mind rapes her.
And Wayne, I'm just saying, the caliber of the dagger compared to an SMG is way different, even if Kirei could survive a bullet to the head, he can't survive Azoth.
Sad, but Rin probably really hid Azoth up her ass... And Kirei isn't as messed up as to go feeling under her skirt for his dagger back.... And Kirei probably doesn't know where she hid it in the first place.
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Post by Guest on 2010-05-16, 20:22

Let me get this right, he will mind rape a girl on a cross but he won't feel up some girl because he wants his stuff, let me clarify, is he a catholic or is he a lolicon?

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Post by M. Ainsel on 2010-05-16, 21:09

Wait wait wait, I just realized something:
If Kirei sent Gilgamesh to do his "dirty work" with Rin, pop in there to take Ms. Loli, and have Gll wait for the Dynamic Duo to return and then just make Paladin (in Felix speak, Pal-ladd-in) & Magus Kabobs out of the protagonists, he wouldn't have freakin' died! If he knew that Shiro and Saber would return to their house, why given them a fair fight on the Temple when he could ambush them? Its not like Kirei is beyond doing something like that.
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Post by Guest on 2010-05-16, 21:46

cuz kirei isnt cowardly like that where he sends his overpowered servant to do all his work + it costs mana to have gil do his stuff, though i guess that really isn't that much an issue.

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Post by Corenat Rovarnus on 2010-05-16, 22:04

MarthMarthy wrote:Wait wait wait, I just realized something:
If Kirei sent Gilgamesh to do his "dirty work" with Rin, pop in there to take Ms. Loli, and have Gll wait for the Dynamic Duo to return and then just make Paladin (in Felix speak, Pal-ladd-in) & Magus Kabobs out of the protagonists, he wouldn't have freakin' died! If he knew that Shiro and Saber would return to their house, why given them a fair fight on the Temple when he could ambush them? Its not like Kirei is beyond doing something like that.

Hey, you realize kirei's ultimate goal is to open up the holy grail and blow up the world right? and that can be done at only 4 places in fuyuki, one of which is the temple. Kirei has way better things to do (Like mind rape lolicons) than set up some gay ambush at shiro's house. besides, he didn't think saber would defeat gilgamesh, and that shiro would have the ass-oth dagger. What, you want him to win? Yeah sure I would too but that's how it is. Go read Fate/Zero if you want him to win.
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Post by Xenoe on 2010-05-17, 17:49

And Kirei needed to hurry and go crucify Illya cus there are specific times the grail will open the best, so he doesn't really have time to go teabag Rin some more.
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Post by M. Ainsel on 2010-05-17, 19:21

Ok Ok Ok, whatever.
I do have a question about Caster though:
Wayne said that after Caster killed her master, ran around and fell in love with Sorciro, she made new Command Seals that she gave to Sorciro. How the HELL does a Servant make more command seals?!? Its not like Sorciro could have helped, hes not a Magus. And yes i know that Caster is a Magus, but I don't see other Maguses going around making themselves more command seals. I'm just curious how she does this.
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Post by The Lord Kelvin on 2010-05-17, 20:07

she was about to die since her last master used a command seal to make her die if she killed her master (not recieve mana in any way) so she had sex with soiciro and formed a contract, so he cud use the seals and counter the last command cause the seals r just that powerful
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Post by Xenoe on 2010-05-17, 21:37

Lawl, they find ways to cram porn into every nook and cranny of the story, I'm serous, you need mana? Sex. About to die? Sex. Going to go mad? Sex. Need something awesome to happen that would be a plot breaker? Sex.
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Post by The Lord Kelvin on 2010-05-17, 22:15

it's japanese..... what do u expect?......
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Post by Xenoe on 2010-05-17, 22:17

Kelvin, you shouldn't expect these things, even if you know they are going to happen, you should still act very surprised.
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Post by The Lord Kelvin on 2010-05-17, 22:18

sorry.... that's not me......
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Post by Xenoe on 2010-05-17, 22:20

Its a great tip for life and morality, else you wouldn't be able to take it after a while, I frequently consider genocide cus of how corrupt this world is.
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Post by The Lord Kelvin on 2010-05-17, 22:21

i'd rather not sink that low.......
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Post by Xenoe on 2010-05-17, 22:27

Actually its called ignorance and denial, it helps make you happy, the republicans do it all the time.
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Post by Corenat Rovarnus on 2010-05-17, 22:33

@Xenoe wrote:Lawl, they find ways to cram porn into every nook and cranny of the story, I'm serous, you need mana? Sex. About to die? Sex. Going to go mad? Sex. Need something awesome to happen that would be a plot breaker? Sex.

felix, that's called Deus Sex Machina. They pull that a lot in Dune as well.
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Post by Corenat Rovarnus on 2010-05-17, 22:37

itsame273 wrote:it's japanese..... what do u expect?......
NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition!
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Post by Xenoe on 2010-05-17, 22:42

Indeed he did.
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Post by Xenoe on 2010-05-17, 22:43

Fear teh double post, and Deus Sex Machina is a gay technique, I'm just saying...
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Post by Corenat Rovarnus on 2010-05-17, 23:15

Lol felix, its a good strategy to know your tropes and memes.
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Post by M. Ainsel on 2010-05-18, 09:44

Uhhhh, I don't see other masters going around banging their servants for free command seals. To me it seems like the only Master who would not be able to constantly replenish his supply of command seals would be Kirei. If what Kelvin said was true, then this hack for Maguses would exist: they could use their first one to make the servant do something, and then the second to force them to have sex so they can get their command seals back.
Maybe this is why they are called "Masters" and "Servants"...
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Post by The Lord Kelvin on 2010-05-18, 17:11

um..... michael ur missing the point......... caster is able to make command seals bcause she can actually do magic unlike the magi in the holy grail war...... so she can make command seals..... also having sex in the nasuverse is "forming a contract" to make caster soiciro's servant, since he's not a magus, so she can give him the command seals
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Post by Corenat Rovarnus on 2010-05-18, 17:22

MarthMarthy wrote:Uhhhh, I don't see other masters going around banging their servants for free command seals. To me it seems like the only Master who would not be able to constantly replenish his supply of command seals would be Kirei. If what Kelvin said was true, then this hack for Maguses would exist: they could use their first one to make the servant do something, and then the second to force them to have sex so they can get their command seals back.
Maybe this is why they are called "Masters" and "Servants"...

Yeah I explained this to you IRL already but I just thought I'd wrap things up here as well so n00bs don't get misinformed. You can only form one contract with a servant(Its like an employee, you can't hire him twice) and the reason for the sex is because the master is not proficient enough to make the contract himself. Command seals may look like physical objects, but they are the symbol of the contract, and you can't make a new contract(which is what getting new command seals would signify) where one already exists. You can't use or have more than 3 command seals for all your servants, except under special circumstances which don't occur in F/SN.

I am rock solid on all of this except the last sentence.

Oh yeah and I have a gigantic glaring piece of evidence that invalidates michael's 'hack': shiro and saber did it TWICE. did he get extra command seals? NO.


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Post by The Lord Kelvin on 2010-05-18, 17:40

@Corenat Rovarnus wrote:You can't use or have more than 3 command seals for all your servants, except under special circumstances which don't occur in F/SN.

yeah...... u forgot about Illya..... she has an inexhaustible amount all over her body
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Post by M. Ainsel on 2010-05-18, 18:32

Illya is a homunculus or something, she's not technically human. Shes more Magic Circuit than person.
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Post by Corenat Rovarnus on 2010-05-18, 18:38

man this is why I urge people to read the VN instead of the anime. The human body is not designed to support magic circuits, a magus is a human that can form the shape of circuits. Ilya is a circuit in the shape of a human.
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Post by Xenoe on 2010-05-18, 20:56

Well, no humans can support circuits, else why can Aoko use her magic gunner (direct manipulation of mana)? Shes human just like Shiki.
And please close this thread and urge Micheal just to find out for himself. Its not called Deus sex machina for nothing, I mean its only supposed to happen in special circumstances.
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Post by Corenat Rovarnus on 2010-05-18, 22:35

Somehow I doubt he'll ever listen. You wanna try convincing Amos? yeah. freakin illiterate savages. try finding a novel I wouldn't read, the only reasons I wouldn't would be if I was in public and it was obviously meant for teenage girls, or in a language I have no understanding of. Of course, my opinion of the novel is completely different. The only book I ever regret reading was The Catcher in the Rye. Holden's way of thinking made so much sense to me it was scary.
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Post by Zhu Yang on 2010-07-13, 22:24

ZOMG I finally finished the Fate route xD
So sad Sad
COME BACK SEIBAAAAAAA~!
Sad Sad Sad
Um, anyways yea.

So, when Gilgamesh slashed Shirou the day he and Saber were dating (after he went to the bridge to find her), Shirou's wound was like healing with swords or something...or his body was made of swords I think, and they were attaching themselves together after his arm got chopped off.

I would assume it was because of Avalon, but isn't that a sheath? Or did his love for swords like materialize because of Avalon and heal him in that form.
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Post by nullset12 on 2010-07-13, 22:28

Avalon provides limited immortality to the wielder.

In this case, shiro is wielding avalon within himself. Avalon itself healed shiro as that is the point of limited immortality.

When King Arthur died on the battlefield, he died cause Avalon was stolen from him and he was then susceptible to fatal wounds.

Spoiler:
The hallowed scabbard of Excalibur, originally stolen from King Arthur shortly before the Battle of Camlann. Mere possession of this Noble Phantasm bequeaths limited immortality through regenerative stimulation, as well as preventing physical deterioration due to aging. When initiated as a Noble Phantasm, Avalon dissipates into countless particles and immerses its user into a tranquil domain of the fairies, virtually a "portable fortress". While bounded in this manner, an individual is shielded from all destructive interference in the physical realm, from parallel worlds, and dimensional planes. Avalon transcends even the most advanced sorceries, and not even the five "true" magics are able to overcome this absolute defense. The name Avalon alludes to a legendary isle in English folklore, best known as the final resting place of King Arthur.

As for the healing with swords, I think that has something to do with his reality marble. Perhaps Avalon heals in the way that the wielder wants it to be healed. In shiro's case, swords? (i have no clue if these last 2 sentences are true)
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Post by Zhu Yang on 2010-07-13, 22:33

Yeah, that would probably explain it lol.
It's pretty freaky all around O_O
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Post by nullset12 on 2010-07-13, 22:36

I'm laughing at the posts above yours xD
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Post by ZedSlayer on 2010-07-14, 14:46

anyone have this on their flash drives?

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Post by Corenat Rovarnus on 2010-07-14, 16:53

you need at least a 4gb to carry this sucker, with voice over and realta nua graphics patch. You'd only be able to get this from me or kelvin flashdrive-wise.

and oh man, you just had to revive this stupid topic. I oughta put a word censor, "keire" gets replaced with "Kirei" cuz I'm tired of seeing michael mispell it.
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Post by Zhu Yang on 2010-07-14, 17:46

Lol, my bad man. But 4gb?
Mine's only about 2.8gb. Am I missing some stuff in the graphics department?
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Post by Corenat Rovarnus on 2010-07-14, 19:15

I didn't say it was 4gb, but that you'd need a 4gb to hold that 2.8, you aren't missing anything.
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Post by Zhu Yang on 2010-07-14, 19:23

Ohhh gotcha. Nice to know Very Happy
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Post by nullset12 on 2010-07-14, 19:37

Damn... michael is so clueless in those first posts.
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Post by ZedSlayer on 2010-07-14, 23:34

I've got like 10 gigs left on this flash drive

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Post by Zhu Yang on 2010-07-15, 00:24

Uh, hasn't this been uploaded? Or is there a special reason you want to use a flash drive?
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