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Tohno Shiki vs Emiya Shiro

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Tohno Shiki vs Emiya Shiro Empty Tohno Shiki vs Emiya Shiro

Post by nullset12 on 2010-07-08, 18:00

Who would win in a straight foward duel?

Tohno Shiki:

Possesses the mystic eyes of death perception which allow him to detect lines and dots to slash/stab at and kill the person instantly. He suffers from headaches and brain damage as a result of overthinking about the concept. Seeing lines and dots in the undead gives him severe headaches as they should not possess points at which they can die.

Emiya Shiro:

Possesses a reality marble of infinite blades. Each blade can be traced and reinforced to achieve great power. Is skilled in swordsmanship. He suffers from headaches and magic circuit overload as a result of creating new magic circuits each time he chooses to trace. (Adult Shiro does not do this)

I am thinking that shiro could easily kill shiki from far away by tracing archer's bow and some arrows.
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Post by kaede on 2010-07-08, 18:34

I'd have to throw in with shiki due to his eyes of death combined with his dormant nanaya personality and training he would just cut the lines of any projectiles that comes his way and when he get up close he would cut the lines of the blades that shirou uses and eventualy stab him in his point of death.

But this would depend on lots of different factors like which shirou would it be? Fate, UBW, or HF? Each Shirou has different skills and abilities. (from here on is just my opinion on shirou) Fate shirou in my opinion is the weakest, UBW shirou is the middle because of he has the reality marble and can has been shown to be able to fight gilgamesh one on one, and HF shirou is the strongest because of archers arm and can ,in a way, trace berserkers nine lives NP.
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Post by Corenat Rovarnus on 2010-07-08, 19:07

this is a bad fight idea quan, shiki would win since shiro has never actually used a bow and arrow in actual combat cuz he's a dumbass, let's do satsujinki vs. ful archer instead.
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Post by kaede on 2010-07-08, 19:09

I agree with wayne satsujinki vs archer would be good to see.
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Post by nullset12 on 2010-07-08, 20:39

Ok ...

I'll go with satsujinki (older shiki right?) cause his death perception is much more powerful. Could he see the lines of death in noble phantasms?
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Post by Corenat Rovarnus on 2010-07-08, 20:49

hmm..cybele as mystic eyes is a noble phantasm...in type moon complex shiki can see lines on shiro's fakes....but real NPs...added to the fact that tmoon complex is fan made...it'd take a lot of effort but I think he could do it.
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Post by nullset12 on 2010-07-08, 21:01

Is it possible that he could go "vegetable"?

I mean, nothing much has been said about satsujinki. But, since hes older, maybe he has developed some methods of dealing with deteriorating nerves?

Type moon complex?
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Post by Corenat Rovarnus on 2010-07-08, 21:09

noble phantasms aren't vegetables....and shiki's getting power from arcueid so that he doesn't drop dead all the time. type moon complex is a crossover manga made by crazy clover club.
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Post by nullset12 on 2010-07-08, 21:41

................ i meant that shiki could just go completely "vegetable" or brain dead
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Post by kaede on 2010-07-08, 22:38

brain dead is a best case senario but the eyes will kill him...

But till then I'll go with satujinki sence his eyes are stronger so he may be able to see the lines clearer on archers attacks and his NP. And remember before they where NP they where once regular items that ascended to heroic status so in all likelyhood shiki can cut through NP(ea may be excluded sense archer cant trace it because its made of matrials not from earth so it may not have lines shiki can see).
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Post by kaede on 2010-07-08, 23:07

Please excuse the double post but I thought i'd post a bit about what the two have going for them.

Satsujinki

Eyes of Instant Death
直死の魔眼 - Chokushi no Magan
Spoiler:
Eyes of Instant Death
What Shiki obtained; eyes that see the death of things. Represented by black lines and dots. Lines are those lines where it is easy for that substance to break while dots are death themselves. Slice a line and that part will die even if the main body survives and won't move. Strike a dot and that solid object will cease to function completely. Lines will be seen even if one doesn't think about them, but to see the dots, the source of the lines, this requires extreme mental concentration. While it's said to be able to see death as a defined form, it's not death itself but the lifespan of the substance. To be more precise, it's the existential boundary that had been predetermined at the moment of that object's origin (on the other hand, other than Roa's soul, so far he's generally killed objects that have actual physical substance, real bodies and what not - not that he can't, but it'll take some time and adjustment and a migraine). Poke out a dot and you end it's reason/conditions for existing in this world. For example, the soul itself is said to be the one indestructible substance in the world but is only allowed a limited time of existence based on the body it was developed in; this is its time limit. The soul is not destroyed; the predetermined time limit is put to into effect. When that time limit is up, the soul returns to Akasha, dispersed, and then recycled. Therefore, killing phenomena is not possible; everything in our plain of existence can be destroyed or has a time limit. Phenomena come from above - Akasha - directly and take form as occurrences. Current incarnation may be destroyed but the phenomena will keep occurring under certain conditions. Further note that Shiki didn't see dots on said phenomena.

As said again and again and again. It's not so much the existence or the record. It's the predetermined life span, as in what binds the object to the relevant plane of existence, in other words, the time limit, is seen.

And as said in the game, lines cannot be seen on those things that can't be killed (broken) in the present era. The base power of a human user of these eyes work in relation to the limits of the humans of that era. And obviously, as an extension of that, the base power an Earthling user, be it person or object, of these eyes is going to work in relation to how the system of Earth works. Be it rock, stone, salamander, or concept, as long as it was born in this world, there's going to be something fundamentally similar with hairy apes.

Shiki's eyes had originally been for Jougan. By experiencing temporary death, he was connected to Akasha and his brain came to understand death. His eyes work as a set with his brain and so he he could see death directly.

Using his eyes on his own will causes them to turn blue, the color of normal activated Jougan.

The eyes of the other Shiki, or rather, the body of Ryougi Shiki had more or less been optimized for this from the start. Even then, slicing a line on an arm with the remains of Shakamuni didn't destroy it. A second slash did sever it, but it was later reattached. What should have been a fatal strike to Araya, a 200-year old monk that was becoming a concept, didn't kill him either in their first encounter.

Further note that those eyes cannot be used on the Ultimate Ones as they do not have the concept of "death" (a time limit as we humans perceive). Shiki uses his own world of perception (that is the environment he was born in; the world "organic life" can exist in) as the lens for seeing death; the Ultimate Ones, as is the case of Ea (which is representative of the original state of the plent which isn't even possible to understand as long as one is an organic existence), have probably differed too much from the very origins of creatures born from Gaia for the laws of Earth to work on them; they carry with them their laws of nature even outside of their own homes and are closer to the true/perfect state of celestial bodies. Anything born from Earth can be understood and killed as there is a common background. However....

As (Tohno) Shiki understands the "meaning to kill meaning" from the Akashic Records, there is the possibility for him to see the past and the future. However, (Tohno) Shiki's channel doesn't have that much exposure, therefore, at best, he will only be limited to "seeing". It isn't possible for him to "control".

The knife of the Nanaya
Spoiler:
The treasured knife of the Nanaya clan. Kept by Makihisa instead of being disposed of. While it's "treasured", there isn't any real value to it. It's just simply tough. For a knife of that kind of age, it's also mysteriously made for being used as a throwing knife.

An excellent item with the characters Nanatsu Yoru carved on the hilt and at a glance would be recognized as being a property of the Nanayas.

In the game, Kohaku gives it to Shiki saying it's a memento that Makihisa wanted to leave for Shiki, but really, Kohaku took it out from Makihisa's room without being told to.... Kohaku-san didn't look at what was inside the box also. She had probably been scheming that Shiki might remember some bits about his past since it was Nanaya property....?

Archer

Archer's cloak
Spoiler:
Made from a type of burial cloth. Described as being made from a 1st-rate conceptual weapon that's not meant to protect against outer enemies, but the outer world.

Hrunting - The Hound of the Red Plains
Spoiler:
The sword used to kill the mother of Grendel. When used by Archer as a Broken Phantasm, it will continue to pursue the target, even if parried, repulsed, or avoided, as long as he continues to aim at the target. It's strong enough to pierce through 4 layers of Rho Aias and still continue closing in on the target.

Caladbolg II - The Fake Spiral Sword
Spoiler:
A modification of the original Caladbolg, which was the sword of Fergus, hence the II. Used by Archer. It's energy output when used as a Broken Phantasm has a rank of approximately A. If used by one who has ties to Ulster, Cu Chulainn must lose to it once due to his Geis.

Kanshou and Bakuya - Gan Jiang and Mo Ye
Spoiler:
Kanshou, the sword of Yang, and Bakuya, the sword of Yin.

The dual swords used preferably by Archer. Rank as Noble Phantasms is C-. "Married" swords among which such strong bonds exist that they will return to the hands of the owner, should there even be some trouble in which they're lost. (This can be used in combat also; if one blade is thrown, it will return back, as in fly back towards the user, due to the bond to the other blade. Image-wise, a boomerang like effect).

Sword quality is high for both, but they also have shamanistic and ritual aspects as enchanted weapons. They can be thrown and will return automatically to the user as long as the other one is still being held. They also have protection against thaumaturgy properties. Equipping them will result in raising of anti-thaumaturgy and anti-physical stats.

Added by Archer on the blades are words that may seem like anti-demonic charms. The true meaning to these words though is not ideology (nothing to do with the story behind these swords), but swordsmanship based on foundations.

Our souls, hard while firm
Our power, ripping the mountains
Our swords, splitting the water
Our names, reaching the villa
- Only one among us can stand under heaven.

(Based sort of on the simpler-to-understand version of the poem (the original isn't even really Chinese)- the last line to clear up any future misunderstandings is more or less saying the world isn't big enough for you and me, so I'm going to kill you; or something like that)

This is more or less a representation of a technique/strategy that Archer uses with Kanshou and Bakuya; consecutive tracing. Tracing 3 sets of Kanshou and Bakuya ahead of time and then projecting them when necessary.

Shirou's use of it differed from Archer's. The first line coincides with the first set that is thrown at the target, the second set is projected for close combat while the first set (each sword coming separately) returns and hits the opponent from behind; this is where the second and third line comes. The final set is used to finish off the enemy while his guard is broken; and hence where the last 2 line comes. A skill that was downloaded by Shirou from Kanshou and Bakuya in one of the possible fights against Saber. Basically, a methodical strategy at rendering the opponent defenseless.

Archer's normal use of it is meant to be through 2 series of X-shaped slashes overlayed over each other (and not thrown either) followed by a reinforced version of Kanshou and Bakuya in the final projection. This would be the winged version seen in the anime, Kanshou and Bakuya Overedge.

Low-rank in comparison to the other Noble Phantasms but dual-wield/experience/tracing time makes them very reliable. There had been creation ideology to them; they were made for the sake of being made; which is the point that Shirou liked about them the most when he first saw them - these are beautiful swords, not because of what they represent, but because of the craftsmanship itself.
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